She's the driving force behind the development and delivery of a pioneering demand generation program.

Join us as we delve into her journey, insights and strategies that illuminate the path to success in financial services marketing. Charlotte, welcome. Could we start off by explaining the term demand generation and what your role at BNY Mellon encompasses?

Yes, of course. And it's a funny one because when I first was asked to take this role on, had no idea what demand generation meant. And I spent quite a lot of time googling it, researching it and I read all these descriptions and I said, but that's just marketing.

Right.

For me, it was what marketing is and should be.

And whilst that's true, I think the focus of demand generation is about using data. So we call it a data driven approach to marketing that drives or increases demand for products and services of a given firm in this case, Mellon. For us at BNY Mellon it's also about really enhancing that sales and marketing relationship so it's working in tandem working together. It's not one versus the other we're in isolation it's very much about bringing everyone together and with the same objectives. In terms of the role at BNY Mellon it was really started off to introduce a pilot programme to get a pilot demand generation programme up and running. I started at BNY Mellon in a channel marketing role and did that for about a year and a half and then was asked by my boss Dominic Trainor following a reorganisation of marketing in which his team was renamed from Global Digital to Global Digital and Demand Generation.

He wanted to bring somebody on to run that demand generation programme and he said no, I don't want that. I want somebody who has that more general experience who understands the markets, understands how the sales teams work, understands how campaigns are currently run and things like that. He wanted that expertise to bring in to try and help bridge that gap between the two functions really, I think.

That's quite insightful of him really isn't it? To take that view as opposed to going no demand generation we want to bring in someone that's already done that.

It's quite a bold move.

It was and I mean I was lucky and supported by the help of an external agency as well who have run demand generation programmes for other clients in all sorts of industries so learning from them as we went along.

So let's talk a little bit about the pilot programme perhaps you can give us an overview of what that pilot programme looks like.

I spent quite a lot of time just doing background work understanding where some of our within it we worked with an external agency Critical Mass as well to help us on this. We did lots of interviews with lots of stakeholders so we identified a core team of people at the beginning or stakeholders that we would need to include in this first and foremost the sales team but also all the other areas and also client services as well. And we identified key people within those functions to be part of the programme. We ran a series of interviews to understand where pain points were, where people saw opportunities for things to be improved upon or things that were working and they wanted to explore how they could make them work even better.

So we conducted this research with all these individual stakeholders for quite some time and then got together in various work groups, working sessions with big groups to sort of try and come up with what is our current state in terms of how it works operationally within the organisation to get something out of the door. And also what's the what does the customer journey look like?

How many touch points are there? What happens to them at the end of a campaign?

And I think what we realised is we were pretty good at running campaigns. And we'd run lots of campaigns like I'm sure many of the listeners will you know this will resonate with many people run lots of campaigns but they're often quite specific short lived and then you're before you've had time to digest anything you're on to the next one. And as much as you would like to go back and review the results and see what can we learn from this, there really honestly never is the time.

I'm super interested in what you're saying. I'm picking up on a couple of points there. The first is that I I totally identify with the fact that it's, you're constantly running. Something comes in. You you deliver on a campaign or a piece of content, and you're you're on to the next piece before actually going in checking. Has it done what it's meant to do? So so my my question is, was the term pilot program used within the business and did using that terminology and and sharing that within the business, did did that give you the time to review the effectiveness and and gather the data that you needed and etc?

Yeah I think we definitely did use the term pilot I mean I would say that we started off with one idea as to how we were going to run the pilot and because of all the things we've just discussed around things changing, markets changing, that idea we had to scrap. And so we had to quickly pivot to a new way or a new idea for how we would deliver the pilot. So originally it was going to be European wide and based on a specific campaign. But we were going to implement lots of demand generation tactics, of which there were many. But we're going to implement those in a way in an integrated way that we hadn't really done before in campaigns. So we've done pockets of this work before, but never fully omni channel fully integrated and then with that reporting and lessons learned at the end of it.

So what we decided we would do instead, I've mentioned we had these key stakeholders and advocates throughout the business. We had representation from our Iberian sales team as the sales advocates.

Now for us at BNY Mellon, Spain is one of our strategic priority markets.

It's one of the markets that if we look at the Broadridge FB50 reports we perform the strongest in. So we have good engagement from Spanish clients already. The sales teams have fantastic relationships with those clients and we constantly score pretty highly in the top tens for the marketing and communication efforts. So we felt like we were pushing on an open door with this programme.

That market is also one of the only markets that had a regular, they called a newsletter communication that went out every month. So what we did with the pilot that enabled us to move much more quickly was we looked at that newsletter, we looked at the content that it contained, we ran sort of analysis on things that were doing well with that newsletter over the previous months but we also saw some inconsistencies so it wasn't actually regular every month there were certain months when it didn't happen. All valid reasons for why one person running the marketing team, lots of events driven in that market, holiday periods as well just decided it's not worth the effort or you know perhaps the return wouldn't be worth the time spent putting it together.

But also we looked at different things so this newsletter template was probably a little bit outdated. I think it's fair to say multiple links taking people lots of different places with no clear onward journey.

So what we did is we created a landing experience for the newsletter.

We're not calling it a newsletter anymore it's Vidion I have to say it the Spanish way. Vithion three sixty.

I can't do that in Spanish but you get the idea and we branded it and created a landing experience. We had one CTA. We talked about the different content that people would find in All the content that would have been in the original newsletter that the team was sending out already was available on the landing page. It was just all contained there so it was very nice experience for clients. In the old world that newsletter was sent not on the same day every month and as I've said before not always every month and it was sent once and forgotten about and nothing was ever done after that.

With our programme we send it on the third Wednesday of the month. We resend it with a different subject line the following Monday to people who have not engaged and that means anyone who has not actually clicked through and landed on the website as a result if it's a and it has to be a positive engagement for us to consider them engaged. So we send it to people who have opened it but not clicked. We send it to people who've opened it and looked on the privacy policy for example but we don't send it to people who have actually gone through and read some content on the page. We then write two additional emails focusing on one of the art one or two of the articles that were featuring that month and we send those again three or four days after to the people who still have not engaged.

Now I can already hear people listening to this going well what about the unsubscribe rate? Because that was a really big sort of pushback and an obstacle that we had to overcome with lots of stakeholders actually not only the sales teams.

Due to the volume, the concern about the volume.

Yeah, exactly. Because we've gone from sending roughly one email a month to this audience to then potentially sending them up to four. Right. Even five.

We ran with it so potentially if someone doesn't engage with email one they get sent it a second time. If they're still going to engage they get sent an article follow-up. If they still don't engage they get a second article follow-up and at that point we leave them be for the month. We reinstate them into the program the next month because you know quite honestly there could just have been nothing of interest for them that particular month.

For anyone who does engage with the content we identify which products we think the content that they've read is most suited to or links to and we send a product follow-up email at the end of the month for that program and then we start again each month.

Okay so just to be clear the the first what the old newsletter goes out at the beginning of the month?

The third Wednesday.

Third Wednesday okay so and then the product email essentially goes out about?

It goes out the beginning of the following month really. So it's about two a half weeks.

Yeah.

So that's really interesting to understand the flow of the communications that go out. Coming right back to the beginning of the pilot and identifying, okay. We we've we're going to go for Spain.

Good opportunity. At that point, what was gonna be success for for the for the working group?

We wanted to increase engagement with the content with the newsletters by roughly twenty five percent and increase the number of people that we were able to track. So the Marketo email, we use Marketo for our email programs and obviously we are able to drop a cookie if someone clicks through from an email everything is UTM tracked. Increase the number of people that we are collecting information on and collecting understanding about.

Obviously for many people demand generation is also about new Generating net new leads. For us we took the decision that we have a relatively small sales force across the business and across all the different regions and they already have more contacts than they can possibly have a one to one relationship with in each of those regions. So we wanted to build up our own first party information that we have on clients so we were not necessarily targeting net new. Obviously the primary source of communication for this programme has been email. We do also do LinkedIn targeting at the same time the email all related to the content of the email that goes All branded with the Vithion three sixty as well. So that's joined together. We uploaded a matched audience to LinkedIn and then we target people in the key accounts that we know we want to target.

So all consistent branding of visual All the assets, yeah exactly.

And presumably the individual pieces on LinkedIn are related to the articles that are existing within the news.

Correct.

People that were concerned about the unsubscribe rates.

Zero uptick in unsubscribes.

Wow. That's amazing. So you've quadrupled the volume.

Yeah.

And got zero unsubscribes what's the reason for that?

I think if you think about unsubscribing from emails in your personal life it takes quite a lot to for you to unsubscribe.

Right.

Generally I think we often overthink it and I when we had we did have a preference center that we implemented around the time that was implemented around GDPR but it wasn't really being used. We've got most of our contacts are we are able to contact under legitimate interest So we have actually just recently decommissioned the preference centre. People can obviously still unsubscribe from emails but we're not seeing that happen. We weren't also I think we didn't have enough of the regular communication streams or enough of the data that we were collecting in a consistent way to enable us really to use a preference centre in the way that it should be used.

We also do believe that actually static preferences are not really the way forwards for people and we should be sending people information based on their behaviour and their interactions with the content on our website and that again is what demand generation is about.

Is it fair to say the term of kind of trying to read people's body language?

Yes, Yeah.

Trying to build that information up so that we can feed that back to sales. Everything is linked from Marketo to Salesforce. We've got all sorts of interesting moments set up.

We have marketing qualified lead process in place.

That programme was already being looked at and sort of thought through when we launched the pilot.

Timing was really fortuitous for me in that regard. It was rolled out into Spain at the same time as we launched the programme.

Can you talk about what that process what does a marketing qualified lead constitute?

Sure, so it's three positive digital engagements in a sixty day period, two of which have to be product related.

Right, okay.

And then there is another sort of caveat on that as well. If the person has had a contact from sales in the previous ninety days then they do not get pushed through as a qualified lead because that's obviously somebody that is already having a close relationship with the salesperson, with the sales individual. So this is about surfacing those people say for example someone has two and a half thousand contacts in Salesforce attributed to them that they own. They're probably in contact with around two hundred two fifty of them on a regular basis.

So that leaves a huge number of people that aren't and are potential warm leads. We feed them through and then there is a process within Salesforce where sales teams get notified of these marketing qualified leads. If they look at them and they say yes actually this person is worth a follow-up they tick a little box and it becomes a sales accepted lead. And then there is the next step which is sales qualified which means they've actually had that conversation and there is it is a warm prospect and they will be doing more follow ups on that.

If they don't feel that it's worth their time at the moment for example in the case of Spain it could be someone who's a tied financial advisor. They're not a decision maker. There's a limit to what they can buy then they will recycle it because we don't want to not we don't want to stop communicating with them because we want to be front of mind for the products that they are able to buy but they're not unfortunately worth the sales team's time to follow-up on actively so that's how we manage the qualified leads.

And how has the pilot programme been received by the sales teams in Spain?

Really positively, you know we've fed through so the audience that we send this communication to is around fifteen hundred so it's not a huge audience. It's the advisory sort of audience really primarily. So we communicate in Spanish. It's all in Spanish. We have around three to four hundred people who are regular engagers with the content which is pretty good I think.

Pretty good return on that activity and then probably around another five hundred six hundred who haven't actually engaged once yet. The next stage of our programme is to think about okay how can we change things up for that group of people to try and engage them or do we go out with a proactive you know you've not been engaging so we're going to pause you for six months or something like that.

See if they go out and then see it, I would like to stay in But for those people who are engaging you know we're building up so much insight and knowledge about them so even if they're not people that the sales teams are ready to really talk to at this stage we've got all of this information that's contained in Salesforce they can look back on they can see exactly which web pages they've I guess what it's doing is it's giving them better reach isn't it and more insight about okay I'm caught talking to my one hundred and fifty out of my two thousand contacts but actually you're telling me that you're giving me the intelligence and the insight that this person's ready for a conversation.

I think one of the next things that we've been focused on the reporting for this programme has been focused on demonstrating that we're not increasing the number of unsubscribes. That we are increasing the number of people that we're able to track and sort of learn about, that we are passing through marketing qualified leads. I think the MQL to engaged ratio is about eight percent.

Right.

The rest of Pan Europe combined is three point nine percent. So this is really the only market we're running what we call a true demand gen program in but it's always on so we can see that it's having a massive impact on the MQL conversions. The UK is another market where we're using some tactics but it's in more shorter burst campaign activity but we're still implementing that same retargeting resending emails and that is the next best performing market in terms of MQL conversion.

The first thing, the interaction of LinkedIn and CRM Yeah. And an email push how how has what have you learned from that? Is there Not a huge amount to be honest.

Okay.

We so we uploaded our list of people or list of contacts into LinkedIn campaign manager.

As I say there were around fifteen hundred people there. I think we had around six hundred email addresses that matched. Again as everyone listening will know a lot of people will sign into LinkedIn with their personal email address rather than their work email address. And so it has to be a direct match. So the audience that we started off targeting with the ads was quite small. And you know, we've got some reasonably good return on in terms of engagement on the LinkedIn ads but we're starting from a very low base.

So there's nothing it's very difficult to say we've learned anything from that activity yet because the numbers are just so small.

Yeah. My my theory on that, I'm interested to hear what what you think of this is. I I think that LinkedIn and, advertising is about, almost like awareness. And I my what I'd love to be out and to get your thoughts on is if you're pushing out content across LinkedIn, LinkedIn people may not necessarily click through on it but if they see it but then they receive it in their email does that increase their propensity to click through on email?

Yeah that's what we're hoping for but I don't know that we've been able to ascertain whether or not that is actually happening. Unfortunately the systems aren't necessarily linked so there's quite a lot of manual work that needs to go into pulling that data to see quite what the analysis is and what the results are.

Logically it makes sense. I guess the thing to do is to be able to perhaps AB test that against the campaign and then track the because it's the open rates which is going to ultimately tell you.

And I think something around the timing.

So we normally email first and then social follows.

Okay.

But we could potentially look at trying to get social out beforehand and then follow-up with the email. Yeah.

And that's something again that we haven't tried yet. There's quite many pilots experiments within the pilot isn't At the very beginning we did AB testing of subject lines, we personalised some so it was like oh Charlotte have or whatever the subject of the email was and just there was so minimal difference in those results that after about six months we decided there was no point we'd stop doing that and what we would do instead would be use that personalised subject line in the follow-up email.

So we're still sending that personalised email but it's that second sort of prompt and hoping that that will generate additional click throughs And it does you know if so we've proven that from the old program where just one email was sent you'd get maybe an open rate of I don't know twenty three percent and a click through rate of four. Pretty reasonable not bad really for the market but that was it. You had your twenty three percent open, your four percent who clicked.

With the resend the numbers are lower. You know the open rate is lower on the second send, the click rate is lower but we're still getting additional people.

And the same with each incremental email that we send. Yeah. So and as I said before we're not seeing an increase in unsubscribes So people aren't don't feel like they're being spammed just yet.

No. No. And how and how have you built that process in? Is it when when you're creating that material and creating the because a lot of people will be listening going, sounds great. I'm already flat out with with what I'm doing. So how do you have you have you kind of almost built a system that when you're creating the content, you're creating the different versions straight away?

We do create everything at once. I wouldn't say we've got it in a system just yet.

Right.

That's the next step. I think one of the things for all the content that we use, we have an editorial team like everybody will do and they write the content. When they write that content and submit it for compliance approval they also include a LinkedIn teaser piece of copy. So that is obviously that's used and that can be picked up by any of the regional marketers translated alongside the content itself and then used as normal post. We try and write something a little bit different for this Vithion three sixty campaign. I'm focusing on the Vithion because otherwise my boss Dominic will be cross with me. But we've taken a slightly different stance on the content there so we're writing that again and resubmitting it for compliance.

But what's missing from that is the email copy and you know our field marketers are you know they're very good they know their markets they're all local, they're in local markets, English is not their first language unless they're based in the UK and we only have a compliance team in the UK that only speaks English so everything that gets through put through compliance has to be done in English.

We can't expect our local field marketers to write content in a language that's not their own for approval so one of the things we're going to implement is this template add in a section for email copy so that it can all be complied at the same time at source when the content is created and again when it goes for translation the whole thing can be translated so that it can be slotted into these programs going forward. Yeah. So that's the plan going forward. We're not quite there yet.

No no and that kind of leads us on about the pilot is deemed within the business to be a success I presume?

Yes absolutely I think you know that eight conversion from Engage to MQL versus three point nine for every other market combined in Europe is pretty compelling I think.

Yeah absolutely.

The process of turning from a pilot now into rollout Yeah that's something that we're starting to talk about now.

Wow, congratulations. Yeah, that's huge.

So also worth talking about it on a number of different angles. We've got investment management.

So rolling this out to all continental European markets. The idea for that would be we'd roll out exactly the same program as we're running in Spain. There would be a group of people who would determine you know we will always have a macro piece of content.

We will always have a piece of content on one particular product that is a priority for all of our markets in continental Europe either from a promotional or retention angle. So that piece of content would always be the same. We have another regular piece of content called MarketEye which is like a visual infographic on a something quite topical and interesting that would always be included and then there'll be one room for one other article that would be local choice.

Okay.

And that way we can have a template that is submitted to compliance for all markets together put through the same programmes we can build, we can make use of dynamic content in Marketo to create the different programmes from one central source. So that's the plan and then the fund follow-up emails would again, there were two would be the same for everybody and the third one would be the local choice but those emails again are we've templated them so they don't change a huge amount but we use the latest monthly commentary to update it and provide some additional context. Know not everyone will read a commentary. No no. They might read you know a little two sentence three sentence paragraph at the top of an email that just gives you that insight into what the fund managers are thinking for the for the months to come.

It's a super exciting period, isn't it?

To see where this and I imagine that the as you start to scale this out, the learnings that you gain from doing this across markets is is going to be amplified.

What where are you thinking at the moment that this is the bit I'd like to experiment in and learn now to kind of tighten up and improve?

I think we want to move so we've been plotting a demand gen maturity curve you know where are we and again recently at BNY Mellon my team the team I'm in has now we now report into the corporate enterprise so we're now part of BNY Mellon rather than BNY Mellon Investment Management. And so we have an opportunity to scale this even more across the whole enterprise.

So we sort of reckon that we're somewhere between passive and responsive. And our definition of passive is website forms. So someone's visiting the website, they fill in a form and then obviously that has to be followed up. That's a passive.

We're not doing anything really proactive to go out and generate that particular lead. And then responsive is what we're doing with the pilot in Spain with Physion three sixty and we're really reacting to how clients are engaging with the content and sending them relevant follow ups. We want to move towards personalised. So actually build spin off programmes Again, where you know, at the moment this is, as I said, we're calling it a newsletter.

It's a roundup of content that we think might be interesting. And we're starting there because we don't have that insight into the clients that we have. And we really don't have it in all the other markets either. Lists for emails and campaigns are often very ad hoc in the way they're built.

Personal opinion almost.

Yes exactly a little bit like that and so we want to move away from that and we want to say we don't know and you don't know whether these people would be interested in this unless we know that they are a fixed income analyst for a particular client then we're not going to send them something on thematic equities. You know but there's not a huge number of markets where we have that level of detail about the clients in a way that can talk to Salesforce and Marketo and help us build the programmes. So starting with this idea of a roundup of content that people might find interesting will enable us over time to say okay, yeah, these people always engage with macro related content and all these people actually engage with everything. These only engage with multi asset. And then we can start to build what I would call always on programs for those people around those themes.

Yeah.

So that will almost that that you'll have the core program which then feeds into kind of mini versions of the clothes which Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

That would be that's the That's the dream.

The dream.

Yes. Amazing. Amazing. I guess looking back on this, how long has this taken from sort of start to finish?

I started Well, it's not finished, to where we are now.

Yeah. It's coming up to two years.

Right.

So I started in the team in November twenty one. Those first few months were really just about me sort of doing my own research, getting up to speed with what demand generation meant, why it was different from marketing as I alluded to at the beginning and sort of understanding what we could do and differently and what it was that we weren't doing in that context and then there was probably six months work on the background research bringing all the stakeholders along with us getting the buy in and then we launched September last year.

Right, right and looking back now with hindsight is there anything that you would have done differently?

I think we were initially too focused on the idea of trying to run it around a campaign, a specific campaign. I think if we'd identified this newsletter that the Spanish team were already sending out earlier on we could have been up and running much more quickly with that because that was something, there was already some processes in place for that. It was just a case of making small incremental improvements to various things there and we could have been up and running sooner which I guess would have resulted in us perhaps being able in a position now to be rolling this out in other markets.

That's an interesting So looking to perhaps optimise something that already exists for the business as opposed to building from scratch.

I think yeah I think so and I think that's one of the things that I would say as well just look for those incremental improvements. It doesn't matter doesn't have to be you don't have to come out all swinging.

No. No.

You know right from right from the Don't try to bore the ocean on day one.

Exactly.

What would you say are the kind of pitfalls that if you were to offer advice that you'd say whatever you do don't do this?

Well I think I don't know whether it's pitfall I think don't just forge ahead without seeking buy in and without bringing people along with you on the journey. Think that sales buy in for us it was really about enabling sales and marketing to work together more efficiently.

Because that can often be a cause of maybe friction but it's sales can be like these are my leads.

Exactly. They're my leads. There's little bit of that. You know and we've sort of said if there are open opportunities identified in Salesforce, know really big open opportunities for a particular client then tell us and we can exclude those people from a generic comms or something that's not going to be talking, you know potentially contradictory ory to what you're talking to them about already.

You know that's absolutely fine but people that you're not really talking to you know in Italy obviously and again people will know the Italian market is huge. There's a huge number of financial advisors in Italy and I think we've got around thirty five thousand who are marketable. There's even more of them in the database but you know it's a huge number of people. We know that we can't possibly know everything about them.

Let us just go. We're not after them and then target them. Those individual smaller financial advisors are not necessarily going to have a big open opportunity so let us go for them. Treat them like you know Fineco for example might be a strategic partner but for the underlying advisors if we are able to communicate with them on a regular basis then you know let us do that.

We'll extract the key contacts that you're maybe in conversations with but you know we can do that.

Is there any differentiation between sort of tiers of clients, size of clients? Would you approach things differently for different?

We do have tierings, various different tierings happening within Salesforce and within different regions and I think again that consistency is something that we it would be great if we had a single way of describing whether a client is a strategic partner or a gold, silver, bronze or whatever tier one, two, three, four. We have we use Boston Matrix in the UK as well. Have many different ways of cutting those clients up into different groups and again I think sometimes we can be a little bit data obsessed.

Yes, yeah.

I do think that's a pitfall.

Avoid that and maybe just start bigger in the sense of starting with those bigger groups. Don't worry about whether they've ticked that they're interested in multi asset or they're a potential and a bronze or whatever just focus on the bronze and let's say we'll go after the bronzes and then we'll see how things move from there.

So I do think that's something that you can get too bogged down in.

Also I think you know many people I'm sure will agree we don't have the resources any of us I don't think to be that tailored all the time. There are obviously moments and times and specific campaigns where it pays to be and where you need to be tailored to that nth degree but not all the time.

No. Is there anything with with the kind of technology the kind of I guess the marketing technology stack that you've learned that you need is?

Yeah I mean obviously integration between your email program, your Salesforce or other CRM that you're using is key. Making sure that you're tagging content correctly.

We've just we're just moving to Adobe Analytics whole different universe in terms of UTMs from Google where you had three options. It's infinite possibilities with Adobe which is dangerous. Because you could end up with something that's completely meaningless. Less. Again coming back to that data driven or data obsessed.

I think yeah there's a lot that there's a lot of us that will probably agree we're in that data obsessed world and a focus on vanity metrics rather than actual business.

Things that actually give you insight and help you change and move forwards or as you say demonstrate some attribution to ROI.

Yeah so I guess you've got you constantly have to have that kind of the commercial objectives of the business absolutely at the forefront presumably to gain buy in from the business as this is Any insights pitfalls that you would share?

I mean I don't know again unless we're working unless you're working in the US where you've got full transparency on underlying client information getting real attribution or on ROI from a marketing perspective on any activity is nigh on impossible. We don't see that underlying client information. We see a trade come through from a particular client but we don't know whether it was from this individual who we invited to an event or who read our email or whether it was from someone else who just had done their own research for example. We can't see that.

So it is really tricky. I think you have to look then for trends rather than specifics and you need to understand what the sales process is, what the length of time is from awareness to conversion and that's quite that can be really, really long time in our industry. I think you know there's always opportunities to try and jump on certain things. The UK market obviously with financial clarity you've got a lot more insight than you do in continental Europe where it's even murkier.

I think even less transparent. So you are able to do a lot more in the UK.

Quite good really that you launched your pilot in Spain really isn't it?

Yeah I think it does help us demonstrate that although we can't derive that actual ROI we can still demonstrate the value.

The value.

Guess as we start to kind of wrap up, you think of the if if you needed to sort of summarize for for the audience the best practices that you've learned that you would you would impart on people what would you what would be your kind of like three things to keep top of mind?

Look for those for some small incremental changes look for something that you could turn into this rather than trying to build something completely from scratch depending on where you are obviously in, you know, your maturity of this type of activity. But look for something that you can just improve upon, and implement. Try to test and learn. You know, we tested the AB testing with subject lines and quickly realised that that wasn't delivering us any additional value so scrap it.

That's one less thing to put through compliance. It's one less thing to create in the beginning. And again maybe start small and with a warm, friendly market, a friendly sales team and demonstrate that as I say incremental sort of improvements that we've seen. Take everybody along with you, get the buyer from the beginning and take them every step of the way.

That working group sounds absolutely key doesn't Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

It really is.

Thank you so much Charlotte for joining us today. I wish you all success in rolling out the pilot program across Europe. I'm really excited to see how that all starts coming together. And thank you also to you at home listening to the Growth Engine podcast.

I do hope you've enjoyed this episode. I found it fascinating, I learnt an awful lot. If you would like to learn more, subscribe or follow us on LinkedIn or on www.hubagency.co.uk

Thank you again and see you next time.