With a track record of elevating marketing within the financial industry, Sasha's career spans roles both client and agency side, working for organizations that include Schroders, Brewin Dolphin, as well as being an external marketing consultant through to her current position at Waverton.

Sasha brings a wealth of experience in driving marketing transformation. She emphasizes a refreshing roll up your sleeves approach to getting things done. As a regular speaker on topics such as customer experience and digitalization in wealth management, her insights offer valuable perspectives on evolving marketing practices in the sector.

In this episode, Sasha will share her approach to transforming a marketing function to better align with business objectives and empowering her team to become more confident marketers.

Whether you're in a marketing team or leading that team and are interested in elevating the role of marketing within your organization, Sasha's story offers lessons on leadership, strategy and innovation.

Sasha, thanks for joining us today. To kick us off, can you tell us about your journey within financial services marketing and what's led you to your current role at Waverton?

Thank you, David, and thank you for having me on the podcast. I absolutely will not do my LinkedIn run through, but to give you a sense of it, I suppose I don't know whether it's a particularly different journey to everybody else, but I have worked in different types of organizations with different perspectives on the world of marketing. So I started my life in design and then I worked in advertising on the agency side.

Then I flipped to client side, but for a small business, which was a most fantastic learning ground because they gave me tons of responsibility and just let me get on with it.

And then I moved from there up to larger firms. So I ended up working with some big global brands, which can be an entirely different experience of working in marketing. It's less about getting everything done and more about sitting very closely in your little work stream. Having worked also as a consultant, I've worked with agencies as a consultant and also consulting directly with client brands.

And again, that's a very different style of working and different skill sets that you need to engage with all your stakeholders. So I think I've learned that I'm definitely a small company mentality person, which doesn't mean I only want to work in small companies, but it means it's that that ability to be a bit more agile and a bit more entrepreneurial in trying to get things done, but also thinking about how you can help businesses grow. Very, very large companies are often very mature and very mature in their marketing structures as well. So actually having a bit more of an impact and making things happen is harder to do because you've just got a lot of rules around you.

So I think having worked on agency side, client side, big company, small company, and as a consultant through that has given me sort of a fairly rounded set of experiences.

Within your roles, you've seen almost all faces of marketing from large firms, smaller firms, client side, agency side. What led you to Waverton?

The opportunity to start at Waverton back in twenty twenty one really excited me because I could see the opportunity to help a business grow. Waverton had been going as a brand not that long compared to some of the other businesses I've worked at, which are hundreds of years old.

But as a business had grown fairly rapidly, but hadn't really sort of flexed its marketing muscles, if you like, and had an appetite or an ambition to grow much faster, much bigger, much more sort of comprehensively rather than just through and organically rather than just through acquisition.

So it was quite clear to me that the opportunity to take a marketing function from quite a sort of service orientated or more of a utility function within the business to something more strategic that actually could help the CEO realise his ambition to grow the business. But sort of an opportunity doesn't come along too often.

No, no. And what so you're saying about the opportunity to take it from a strategic role within the business? Was it not in that state when you came in initially?

Not particularly. I mean, the business as a whole, I think, hadn't really invested in either the brand or the technology or the people. So, yes, some really bright people working in the in the marketing team and certainly some people around that team who wanted more from a marketing function without doubt. But they hadn't necessarily focused on that as an opportunity to grow.

So we needed to retool the team a little. We needed to invest in some technology. We needed to invest in the right partners, say whether that be digital agencies, PR agencies, so that those whole sort of smorgasbord of talent could be brought to bear on the commercial outcomes for the business.

Like you say, you saw that opportunity in Waverton and so actually it's a great company, but it almost seems that there was this latent opportunity that wasn't quite being realized because they had to flick the switch of marketing. So how do you go from that when you come into where you are now? So I know where I see Waveton winning marketing awards now. So clearly there's been a big transformation in that time. So can you maybe talk us through what was the kind of overriding objectives when you first started?

Were thinking about I think what happened and I was, it was fortunate, is that the management of Waverton recognised that they needed to have a more fulsome marketing that could perhaps empower the business a bit more.

So in a sense, I was engaged in order to make that happen.

Okay.

Having said that, there obviously still pockets of people in areas of the business that hadn't appreciated that that's what marketing could do. There was an early stage to engage with senior stakeholders and certainly to get endorsement from the board. That was very important.

And also to make sure that we had some early wins to demonstrate why we should think differently about marketing and that marketing is not there to execute everybody else's instructions or be an overflow pipe when people needed help with a PowerPoint or something.

And slowly, but with increasing velocity, we've been able to take the rest of the business on this journey. I think probably the most important thing that my team have been able to do is to collaborate and listen to what the business really wants. But rather than just knee jerk execute, actually challenge the business as to why they want what they think they want. Right.

That's interesting. There's a little anecdote there about before I even joined, I was taken into a room and told that really what they needed was a brochure. And I said, I wanted to ask why they felt they needed a brochure, what was the brochure there to do and what were they gonna put in the brochure? And that was all for marketing to put marketing in the brochure.

Okay, well, let's have a little rethink on what you've actually asked for and what you really think I'm here to do. And I'm delighted to say that two and a half years later, we still haven't done that magic brochure because people have stopped asking for brochures. Yeah. And they start to realize that the role of the marketing function at Waverton now is a bit beyond that.

We can produce collateral if it's part of a requirement that's going to serve the needs of the business, but a single person asking for a brochure is not what marketing is there to A term I talk about a lot and was one of the original instigators of us setting up this podcast was that marketing is often seen in a disparaging term as colouring department and organisation.

I feel certainly that some organisations don't quite understand what marketing is there to do or can do, given the right opportunity. But of course, you need the buy in from the senior board or the senior management team. But if it if it is given that backup and is unshackled, it can actually play its role in being a real strategic growth driver of a business.

And it seems that when you from what you're saying about that brochure, sorry, perhaps there was not that quite understanding of the capabilities of what marketing could do from a strategic point of view.

One hundred percent. And I think that what's really pleasing to me is it's lovely to win some marketing awards and it's wonderful to see the team thriving and taking on way more responsibility and delivering really exciting projects business. But actually to see the way that the business engages with us as a function now is is totally very different. Right.

You know, quite often, you know, in the past, if senior people came over to the marketing desk and I was slightly nervous about what they're going to say, you know, oh my gosh, we're going get beaten up because something's wrong on the website or something. But actually now there's a much more collaborative and engaging tone, whether it's us presenting our findings from a piece of work or a project that we've delivered right through to asking what the challenges are for the business going forward and how we play our in helping them reach their commercial objectives.

So I think that that's an extremely rewarding shift, mindset shift for the whole business. And it's placed the marketing team really at the center of a lot of the activities to help the business grow, whether that be sales support, whether that be lead generation, whether that be brand reputation or internal comms and culture, which is now recognised as a much more important part of how we build our business.

Fascinating. Sasha, you mentioned the objectives that you put in place. Can you can you share what they what they are?

Are comfortable to share those?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that they're probably not that dissimilar to other firms or a version of. I mean, obviously different firms, like I said, big or small will have very different, commercial objectives to to to match to. So ours are, probably more fulsome, expression of them, but off the top of my head, they we have brand reputation, Super important because when I joined Waverton, a lot of the senior stakeholders saying to me, what we struggle is no one's ever heard of us.

Yeah.

Then, the second one is, growth. So that's lead generation, growing the business, supporting people who are growth drivers.

Again, when I joined the firm, we didn't have a very methodical and well formed process for gathering new business. The third one is the client experience. Yeah. Like many firms in our space, you actually grow, if you look after your clients, they will refer you. That's a sort of most common source of new business and a nice way to grow the business because it's the ultimate litmus test that you're good at what you do is that your clients are happy and they talk to you, they talk to others about you.

So having a good client experience from onboarding through to obviously investment performance and digital reporting right through to, you know, client events and engagement with our content and so on through our website. So that's kind of important. The fourth one is about driving efficiency.

Okay.

So as we grow as a business, I mean, we haven't really grown the team in number. But what we have done, I mean, we've tripled our budget in the two and a half years that I've been there because we've been able to demonstrate that what we do is effective. Yeah. We are constantly driving efficiency. We can't just get more money. We can't just get more people all the time. We have to do more with what we've got.

So driving efficiency and creating those sort of self serving opportunities for the business to be able to get what they want easily for marketing, to down tools in order to go and provide some help to somebody when they can get it themselves. And the fifth one is about digitization.

Now this is a quite a broad subject. And it covers everything from helping our clients engage with us more digitally. So digital first, as well as looking at ways we can harness technology to become more efficient. So some of these objectives overlap or links quite carefully. For instance, you know, using AI, for example, is a good example of how we can use marketing technology as well as new technology to digitize and create better content, better ROI on the content, better reporting.

Know, data is obviously at the heart of so many things. So digitization is a core theme for Waverton as a whole, but it's absolutely the heart of the marketing function as well.

That's so interesting to hear those core objectives. What you're mentioning was about how you use those objectives within the management of the team as well.

Can you sort of expand on that a little bit?

Yeah, I think it's it's certainly I feel this. I suppose most people do, too, that you have to feel that what you do in your day and why you do it has some sort of connectivity to the business and you're not just got some random task list. So what I did on joining Waverton was to set up these strategic objectives and then to to help the team feel connected to them by making sure their own objectives laddered up to those.

And this was a really useful exercise because it allowed us to structure the team in such a way that was geared towards the successful delivery of the objectives.

And then you could look at the people that we had and the skill sets and the experiences that they had and then fit them to the roles that we needed to deliver.

I think what can happen sometimes is you have a bunch of people with certain skill sets, you're right, okay, well what can we do with them? What can we do with what we've got? It's a ready, steady cook kind of approach. And so I prefer to, if either retool the team, invest in their training, invest in their own development to a in a way that sets them up for success as part of a wider successful function.

Yeah, I love the fact about the objectives start almost laddering up to the wider commercial objectives because then everyone also recognises the role that they're actually playing in the in the firm or the organisations.

And I tell you why it's really useful, because then when somebody comes over to the marketing desk, it's all good. You just could you just well, actually, these are the things that we're charged with doing by the business. And this has been sanctioned by the board and the senior management team. Yeah.

And what you're asking for doesn't fit into any of those things. Yeah. So we can either stop doing our strategic objectives, which we show we can see are working or we to do your thing. Yeah.

So maybe we'll have a rethink about what it is that you need. Maybe you actually need something that's gonna help the wheels turn So, so it gives us a quite a neat framing.

Yes.

For analysing whether a sponsorship is going to be useful. How is it going to help us deliver our objectives?

Probably helped in that brochure conversation.

Yeah, did a bit actually because collateral wasn't really a strategic objective. It's an output in order to deliver maybe lead generation, but it's not a it's not a strategic objective.

Yeah. No, I really I really like that as a tool really. And just making sure that everyone's pulling in the same direction as well.

Doing different things, you know, and you can have no one in my team only does one of them, you know. Yeah. There's at any one time they may be focused on more or less of one of those objectives. But in order for everyone to have variety and to and to share their experiences and of course, you know, of course skill and stuff, I think it's really important that they all see what everyone's doing and they can see what, you know, from one year to the next, they might say actually that, you know, next year I'd like to focus more on brand or on PR.

I'd like to learn more about that. Okay, will you take that one then? Yes. Major on that for a bit.

So or if somebody wants to go and do the, you know, mini MBA like we've talked about, the Mark Rutzen MBA, which is so valuable and I encourage my team to get out and I think three of them have done it now.

That's amazing.

Well, it's they love it. They absolutely love And it's so empowering for them too, because then they feel really feel they have the authority to to input in meetings, but also challenge people who have their own idea about brand or branding.

Listening to what you say, there's a couple of things from what you just said that I'd like to like to pull out or maybe, points that I've just spotted there is that you mentioned that the team essentially hasn't grown that much.

But I think we won more than we were two and a half years ago.

But the but the business has doubled, in fact, tripled the budget. So the recognition what that's telling me, if I'm starting to join those dots together, is that the recognition of the business of actually can play in our growth objectives, it's suddenly like, Okay, got it, which is great. And they're backing you and they're backing the team. But your team hasn't grown. But what you're doing is that it's you talked about the improved efficiency as one of your objectives as well.

So presumably the education of the team and empowering them like the Mark Ritson MBA programme and other sources of learning.

It's not only Mark Ritson, you know.

Other MBAs are available.

But that that must be one of the ways that you're getting efficiency and having better qualified marketers working as part of your team. That must help.

Definitely. And what I what I'm constantly telling my team, and they probably get, they're not the same, that you know, get out there. Don't sit at your desk. Get out there. You know, we are a member of other things like the financial services forum and so on. Get out there, go networking, meet other people who do what you do in other firms or do what you do in a completely different environment.

Go and learn new things. And quite often they'll come back and say, oh, I saw a demo for X, Y, Z. You know, should we try it? And I'm like, You know, and, and I have a great feeling that you should give your team permission to fail really.

Yeah. I'll give them the air cover. But actually if you don't try something, how do you know? And frankly, we sometimes we try things and it doesn't work.

We'll stop doing that then. But you've got to get out there and try and not be so in the weeds all the time that, you know, I mean, a perhaps a good example would be more recently we held an AI hackathon.

I heard about this.

It was such fun.

I was quite jealous I didn't come, to be honest.

Oh, why do I not? It was such fun. And the thing was a few of us have been out to seminars and webinars and whatnot talking about AI. I was obviously, you know, the same thing people talk about for ages. Lots of people had said, oh, well, we're not allowed to use it at our firm.

Right.

It's all blocked and so on. So this is crazy. You know, marketing people should be playing with this stuff. So we hosted one and we got about twenty, twenty five people to come along and we put them in little teams.

We put them in rooms with laptops and they had open access to the Internet. They can go and get any AI tools that they want. And we gave them a challenge to come back with a product, brand, a campaign, social media, whatever they wanted to do. We gave them an hour and a half.

And it was absolutely amazing how these people came back with such fresh ideas. Were only allowed to use AI.

To generate names, product designs, packaging, All within financial service, like products or Three weren't and one was.

So we thought we'll get a bit of a range.

And it was absolutely fantastic to see young marketing people and some not young marketing people just sort of getting stuck in and rolling up their And that to me was a very much how we roll, which is have a crack at it, you know?

Yes.

And give them permission to sort of, play and be a bit freer in their thinking. You know, wealth management is quite a traditional business and not always at the forefront of new things.

But I tell you, if you give your team the opportunity to go and just get down dirty with something new and just have a and let their their hair down a little bit. Yeah. It's amazing what they come back with and they're all really energized as a result.

I bet.

And it was just it was just a nice way to show to people that actually don't be constrained, be brave, think big, be ambitious. You know, we I'm often going up to, you know, places or people and say, well, can we have an event at your place? Or will you come and talk, you know, something?

And quite often people do respond really favourably and they want to help. So so I think the one of the messages I tried to say to my team is don't don't limit yourself. Keep going. Push the door a little bit.

Yeah, mean, just listening to you there, I'm thinking of the if you don't get out your first thing you mentioned, though, I think led us on to this conversation is about empowering your team to actually go out, attend events, meet other people, be curious about about the world and about the curious. Exactly. If you don't do that, you're limited by by what almost what you don't know, aren't you? You're living in your your own space. You're you we all have our own biases that aren't being challenged, but by forcing you're not frog marching your team out, but you're encouraging them to go out and explore more, then those biases are starting to come down.

Well, I tell you what happens sometimes, they go out and they go, actually, we're doing quite a lot of good stuff here. Yeah. Sometimes if you're in your own confines a lot, you can forget that actually you're doing quite a lot and think everyone else is doing it better, everyone else is doing way more.

And actually come back and you can actually, we can tighten up a bit more with some interesting bits and bobs that somebody was talking about we should think But actually, you know, we're doing for what we're trying to achieve. We're doing okay because we're sort of keeping up with the Joneses, you know.

I think you're doing more than keeping up running a running an AI hackathon. I think it's very forward thinking, especially in space. I think that's that's fantastic. And and is demonstrating the culture within the team that I think you've created at Waverton. But we talked about the implementation that you've that you've put in place, how you got the core marketing objectives laddering up to commercial objectives, laddering down into individual team members objectives.

Can you talk about how this has contributed to Waverton's growth that it's experienced?

Because again, looking at the looking at the press, there's been fantastic growth at Waverton.

Broadly speaking, there's that, you know, there isn't sort of a silver bullet that's gone. All right. Flick a switch in marketing, bing, you know, we're growing. Yeah.

But I think there are there are layers to it, you know, all good marketing There are layers to it. So on the one hand engaging with the PR agency that would really got us and really help to open up some doors so that we have regular appearances in broadcast media and broadsheets, you know, covering actually quite a lot from our investment proposition through to our client service through to, you know, how we invest money and so on. So if you'd like that sort of at the at one level in terms of building sort of awareness and reputation and for excellence terms of what we do, right through from to sort of positioning the firm more professionally.

So an example would be until about two or three years ago, our annual report was just a financial statements word document that was saved down as a PDF and sent to company's house. Now that is actually now quite a salesy sort of document that explains the ethos of the business, the culture, the way we run the firm governance, how we manage money, our investment approach, our approach to stewardship, our values, as well as how we look after our people, how we engage with clients. That now tells us a ton of stories about who waved an answer and what we've achieved in the last twelve months, which is the point of an annual report.

So it's not really just about financial statements now. It is actually our strategic narrative. And that has become a very cool document for us. It's no longer something that just sits on company's house.

It's something that sits in reception. Yeah. And it gets taken to meetings.

It also plays into one of the other objectives, I think, that you mentioned about the client experience, because you want all of those touch points of which that is a very important one.

But it's about getting those consistency across those different touch points and that client experience as well, I guess, which It is.

And and giving everybody something that that helps them, you know, where the CEO is having more sort of B2B corporate conversations, he needs to feel well positioned and he goes in with something that is a professional document. Yeah. You know, but equally when we are meeting clients, socially, you know, we've sort of flipped from holding events to say something like the RAC to holding twice a year we hold events at BAFTA. Yeah. We took clients to the VNA to see the Chanel exhibition, you know, that is quite a seismic jump for some people might conceive as a slightly sleepier business to be on the front foot engaging with venues and with speakers. That would be normally the preserve of much bigger brands, bigger pockets, and more bolder outlook. So we've sort of upped our game in terms of where we, where you can see Waverton, you can hear Waverton on the Radio four, you can see Waverton at the VNA, you know, you can engage with us digitally.

Just things like our LinkedIn profile has exploded in the last two to three years or so.

And we see the traffic coming to our website off the back of so many different campaigns and initiatives now that sort of just wasn't really there before. So we've generated this traffic, we've generated this engagement And our clients vary quite a lot from, you know, private clients and their families through to charities. We work with advisors who have their underlying clients and then a small number of institutions as well. So that's a very different type of relationship. Yeah.

So the marketing function now has to have the breadth and, of understanding of all these different client profiles, as well as the depth of understanding of how we deliver for those.

And that does require an awful lot more skill and expertise in the team perhaps than we had before. But I've really encouraged all my team to engage with senior people in the business. I don't, nothing, not everything comes through me. Goodness me, my team know how to do so many more things.

I don't have no clue. I don't need to know. They need to know that they can do it and they'll get the confidence to go and engage with senior people around the business, walk up to the CIO and shoot his monthly video for him and tell him, you know, how to make it look better and how to sound better. Yeah.

That's fine.

Yeah.

Empowering them, I think, is that is that piece that keeps coming back to me.

It really sounds like you've installed that culture within within the Waverton team and gained the respect for the for the rest of the business, for for all of the individuals there.

I think I think listening to people is is so important. And I I absolutely tell myself this because I'm not the best listener all the time. Sometimes I think I know what I'm doing and I charge off. And as I've got older, I've definitely learned that, you know, the power of listening and sometimes saying nothing let other people speak into the space so that you can then help them is so much more useful than just bolding on.

And I'm working in these different jobs that I've had and working in different environments I've had for different types of CEOs means that the work I've done is being very different. To your point earlier about why now, why Waverton? That's sort of the culmination really, quite a sort of convoluted pathway. And from a marketing perspective, having different types of CEOs really does shape what you can do as well.

I mean, I've been lucky enough to work for some fantastic CEOs. And I've also had the less fortunate experiences. And you learn from those too. But I think checking in with your CEO about what what it is that he or she needs from you is actually at the forefront.

You can't arrive in a new job and say, right, we're going to do this because that might not be what they they need in that in that year or in that role.

I suspect there's a lot of people watching or listening to this podcast that are in positions where they may be leading teams and slightly frustrated that their teams or departments isn't being seen in that strategic role, which it's it's capable of. What advice would you give to to those leaders of marketing teams about how they can make that transition? Because clearly within your within your your career, you've worked with both both sides of the fence, large and small organizations. So I think you've got a sort of unique perspective which which people can learn from. So what what what would you be your your kind of core advice?

I think understanding what where the where the strengths of what you have match to what the business actually needs. So by by example, Waverton needed to grow and wanted to grow. So they needed somebody who could sort of go like, I'll just roll up my sleeves and just get on. But, but, but I understand why and where you're going with this business and how I can help you.

But I had to help them understand that marketing could change, would need to change in order to do that. You know, if you're working in a firm that's really mature and the marketing department is massive and it's hard to see what you, how what you do ladders up to or how to create that impact for yourself. I think that then you can have some quite searching conversations around well, what is it that, where can I make some difference here? You know, is it around the way I do what I do or do we need to stop doing some things to start doing new things?

Because, you know, we've always done it that way. It's not a strategy.

But I'm a great believer in asking the sort of slightly prickly questions around what is it that you actually need? And some people just want a faster horse. You know, they just want more. Can you do more of this?

More, I need more marketing. Well, that's not really the answer I'm looking for. I need to know why you need this. What are you trying to achieve?

Don't talk about marketing to ask them about their world. And that can sometimes give you an opportunity to harvest some ideas about how you can help them. Yeah. As opposed to asking them what they want from marketing.

Yeah, I love that. Don't be afraid to ask the prickly question and and don't assume that just because it's done like this, that's the correct way to be doing it. Yeah.

Because And don't assume that your some of your senior stakeholders actually really understand what it is that you could do.

Yeah. You know, I think that's one of the I said earlier about how we've changed the businesses perceptions of marketing. Think before people's understanding of marketing was quite linear and constrained. And I think now people thoroughly expect marketing to get all over internal comms, all over brand and all over corporate reporting and not not just doing, you know, RFPs or, you know, email campaigns.

But client client expectations have changed from organisations as well. So that therefore means that the status quo of what may have been okay for marketing a year ago, two years ago isn't okay now because the market the market is demanding more.

One hundred percent. I mean, I've been around such a long time that I remember when we were switching really from sort of stockbroking to wealth management, you know, and, you know, the way that money was invested was much less about, you know, picking winning stocks to asset allocation.

Looking after clients was much less about having a portfolio that grew by X percent and more about worrying about the structure of their wealth. And the investment management bit was actually just a part of that. So we should expect more evolution in our business. We should expect more evolution in the way marketing is done. You know, I'm old enough to remember the pre email.

Yeah.

You know, advertising artwork was sent out in bromides, you know, and, and actually fast forward to obviously the explosion of the Internet and social media and now AI, you know, this pace of change is going to be like the hockey stick.

So, I think that staying alive to all of that and being agile and not staying in your lane all the time.

Yeah.

Gives you an opportunity to grow with your business. And I think whether you work small business or a big business, save the opportunities for growth and sort of getting on with it and getting stuck in and having a, you know, having a play with some new technology.

You know, having a trial with something that after three months you go, do you know what can it's not working? Yeah.

It sort of can't hurt to try really. Think, you know, what is it? Ask permission? No. Ask to ask for forgiveness, not permission.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an exciting time, really, to be working in this space, isn't it?

I think so. Yeah.

Looking ahead, what's what's marketing's role in Waverton's future? Where where what's what's next on the horizon?

Well, we have a very big year ahead of us.

We've announced a merger with London Capital, which is a London Thank you.

Another London based investment management business. And that will bring together two very successful businesses. Well, not dissimilar actually, they've been going about thirty five years or something.

Similar in size, which is a little bit bigger. But actually together we'll create a whole new business, a whole new way of doing wealth management. Amazing. And the marketing opportunities around that are huge.

Obviously you've got, you know, naming and branding issues and then also how we're to help this business grow either organically or inorganically. And bringing the two businesses together culturally It's so important. You know, that's sort of opportunity to galvanize the teams through the marketing function is a very it's a privilege actually. So it's really exciting.

Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, it sounds like all the foundations have been have been laid. So the next stage that you go on, I'm sure, is going to be a much of success as the last eighteen months have been.

Hope so.

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights with us, Sasha.

My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening today to The Growth Engine. If you enjoyed this episode and like to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from and follow us on LinkedIn for regular updates or on www.hubagency.co.uk Thank you and see you next time.