Should we use YouTube? Should we use TikTok? Should we use social media at all? Should we should we focusing more on on the traditional media?

And and of course, the answer is you can do all all of those things and finding fresh ways of thinking and fresh ways of doing things. And so someone has marketing and AI, I think you'll be pretty in demand if you have both of those skills on a board.

Julian, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you very much.

You've built a portfolio career. You sit on the board of four listed companies, full spanning different sectors. You have a background in financial services and investment research, and you now run a coaching business helping senior execs break into board roles. Yes.

I don't know how you have the time to do all of that. Well well, perhaps we can learn more about that now. But I'm I'm interested when when you look back on your journey and and you reflect on that. How how did you get to this point?

Yes. Well, I started off my career in investment management. I worked on on the the buy side as an analyst covering industrials and aerospace companies. And then I founded and ran my own investment research and training company.

I did that for ten years. And I'd always been interested in boards, so I thought at some point, it might be interesting to join a few different boards, and I started off by joining, the board of a nonprofit, the CFA UK. So it was a volunteer role, and I actually did that for six years, and I I learned a lot. And so I thought that would be a great way to learn about boards and to figure out if I would enjoy a portfolio career at some point.

And then the decision to actually go and have a portfolio career came a bit earlier than I expected, actually. I came to a turning point both professionally and personally, a startup that I'd been working on didn't quite take off the way I'd expected, and then I had a very young child. So it just made sense at that point to see if I could launch a portfolio career. I got my first role, I decided to see, you know, could I actually, gain some others and make a a portfolio out of it, and luckily, it worked out.

So that's how I started off with the with the board That's actually fair.

The decision to move from executive to to nonexecutive director, what what prompted that that move?

So I think it was that turning point. I mean, so I had that executive career. I was working on my own company. I'd started the company, and I was working on another one. And then it just it it made sense, I think. I felt that I had enough to contribute to boards after having worked for several years in in finance and investment management.

So that's is it an experience thing? Is it a confidence thing as well?

I think it's a bit of both. I think it's having enough experience to think that you could add something to a board based on what you've done in your executive career. And then I think it is having it's it's having the desire to to to be on boards Yeah. And then it's having the confidence to think that, yes, I can do this.

And I think having some exposure to boards, having some experience of boards before you go for that first big payroll, so doing some volunteer, work on boards, I think, can be helpful. It gives you that confidence to be in a boardroom, to know when to speak and when not to speak and how to, you know, how to work well with other directors. So I think having the experience to bring something to the board and then having the confidence to have because you've had some exposure, I think those two going together, and the desire to do it. Yes.

And then the and they're having the tenacity as well because it can take a long time to get on a board, and they're quite competitive. Yeah. Even volunteer role sometimes. Yeah.

So it's a combination of those things, I think.

You mentioned the time you were at the CFA. You're there you're on the board for six for a six year period.

What when you look back at that and you think about what you were like at the beginning of that compared to what you've had learned and the experience you gained after a six year period, what's your could you summarize that, Chayne?

Yes. I mean, I think I just well, I'd volunteered with the organization for quite a long time, so even before I joined the board, I'd been on various committees, I'd been chairs of of different committees, and then I joined the full board, and it's a nonprofit, but it's a very professionally run board and, you know, lots of board packs with lots of papers, and you have to prepare well. So I think I just learned how to understand what it meant to be a director, how to work with other directors on the board, how to, sort of, you know, to to know when to to bring my expertise to the fore and when to sometimes step back.

Yeah. And I think it was really good training, for a sort of paid board role. I I don't think people necessarily look at it the same way as if you have a paid board role when you're looking for another board role, but I think it is definitely valued, and it can give you something to talk about when you're in an interview. You can talk about your experience on a board, and and you can sort of stand out from other candidates who haven't had any board experience at all.

Yes. Yes. Of course. So let's let's dive into your your role as a as a as a board member. You sit on boards across three investment companies, each in a in a different AIC sector, targeting completely different types of investors. As a as a non exec, you you're on the receiving end of marketing. Obviously, I'm coming from a from a marketing angle.

When a marketing report lands in your in your board pack, what are you looking for as a as a board member? Yeah.

And how often do you get what you're looking for?

What I would say is I think looking for a few different things. So you're looking for the activity that's been happening, whether the the marketing activity that's been going on within the company. So whether that's the various outreaches or PR or meetings or, you know, whatever activity has been happening within the company from a marketing point of view. As a board, you you might have not been seeing this for for a few months since you want to have an update on what's been what's actually happened within the company.

So you have an idea of that that there's some activity going on. And then I think, if possible, it's good to see what the impact of that has been. So what has the impact been in terms of additional website traffic or in terms of more engagement, and ideally, you want eventually flows to come into into the into the trust. And I think more and more going forward, we as a board, you want to see a real strategy for reaching the retail investor, some tactics and some strategy as well, because I think that's the sort of holy grail for investment trust at the moment.

I was trying to reach that retail investor. And so having seeing a a plan, seeing a strategy, and maybe some new ways of thinking, actually Yeah. In terms of how that's gonna be achieved, I think that's something that boards want to see more of going forward.

Yeah. At a board level, is what what's your sort of views of understanding of marketing and is is from from a skill base, is there is there enough knowledge and skills within within boards that you're part of?

So I think I think traditionally, boards, investment trust boards, investment company boards have bought people on who have investment management skills Yeah.

And finance skills and also accounting skills for, you know, for the chair of audit, and that's been the focus. And so, you know, I think people who have marketing expertise, I think it's it's it's not as common to find on boards, but I think more and more, I think it's being valued. I think more and more you're seeing people with marketing expertise being asked to come on boards, and because I think, as I mentioned, that's something that's really important.

I think more and more that investment trusts are trying to reach out, and, you know, as as the wealth management channel is sort of shrinking away Yeah.

In in some respects, finding that retail investor. So I think it's being valued more, but I think traditionally Yeah. Investment trust boards have looked for people with that expertise.

I've got a really probably daft question, so excuse me in advance.

Is there a set number of positions that you can have on a board? So so when so my and then my reason for asking this is when you say when you talked about more marketing roles coming into boards, does that mean that someone's being replaced or that the boards are looking to bring in an additional person with marketing experience?

I mean, typically, for an investment trust board, they tend to be quite small boards, so you'd have four, five, maximum six.

Okay.

So I think, yes, if someone's going to be if you you've decided you're going to bring someone in with a marketing experience, you're probably, you you know, potentially replacing someone else. Yes. So, you know, it's possible you could expand the board, but you always have to look at that, you know, sort of cost analysis as well Yeah. Cost benefit analysis.

And there's a tenure for how long you can be a board member on an individual?

Could you just, for the Yes. Audiences and my own views, me know those?

Yeah. So most investment companies will try aim to stick with the what's considered best practice on the UK corporate governance, which is nine years for an invest for a director, and typically seen as three year three terms of three. But most you know, I think that's been different in the past. People used to stay on longer, but I think more and more, people become quite strict about, you know, making sure that directors don't stay on for more than nine years.

And is that the same for a chair as well?

Yeah.

Typically for the chair, I mean, there might be a bit of leeway if, let's say, someone has joined and then they become a chair, they might get a bit more time Okay.

You know, when they're the when in that chair position. But, generally, the nine year rule is being stuck to quite quite strictly these days.

And, again, just thinking about the board and and and marketing functions within within trust, what what does good look like?

What from a relationship point of view?

Yes. I mean, I think, ideally, even if you don't have someone who is a marketer on the board, let's say, I think I think it works well when there's someone who takes that responsibility K. To work with the the the in house marketing team. So that person could be the chair.

It could be another Ned. And, actually, on one of my boards, there's actually a sales and marketing committee, which is a bit unusual, and I think that works really well when you at least have someone on the board who's responsible for marketing, whether you have a committee or not, because then they can foster that really good relationship with the in house marketing team. So just like, you know, you have the chair of audit who works with the in house finance division, you'll have the management engagement committee chair, and and that person will work within in the manager and other suppliers.

Yeah. I think it's good to have even if you don't have a defined committee, which, know, could be a good idea, you have someone who's responsible, and I think that can really elevate the position of the marketing function and foster a really great relationship between the board and and the the marketing team. And then, you know, when you have that point person, they'll bring their learnings back to the board, and the football board will have a discussion about it. I think that's quite I think that's worked well when you have someone who's responsible and maybe even have a committee.

Yeah.

I mean, when I when I look back and think about my experience with with boards as a as a marketing agency Yes.

And this is going back, you know, probably fifteen years or so, but my first time I presented in a board meeting, I think we had about five minutes to go through about thirty page document, and it was it was, you know, like, board meetings are you're covering a lot of ground, aren't you? Yeah. But at that time, many many years ago, wasn't seen as as being as much value as it perhaps is today. Yes. You you definitely get more time.

Do you? Have you have you noticed that? Yeah. Definitely. Yes. Absolutely.

But I'm interested with what was what you're saying about forming marketing committees, because presumably, marketing committees can meet up with marketing teams outside of the traditional board meeting as well.

So you're getting more air airtight with the board if you're a in house marketing Yes.

And I think that's unusual to have a separate sales and marketing committee, so one of my boards does, but and maybe we'll see more of that.

I think it's a good idea. Yeah. Because you you do need time, don't you, to explain strategies and plans and get board feedback and stuff.

So Absolutely.

That's a good idea.

Good idea as we start advocating for that.

Absolutely.

So I think Mike Mike, I did have a question, which is do you think boards need more marketers on them? But I think you've you've sort of answered that. It's it's a kind of it may I guess depending on where the individual trusts are and their and their level of experience or or journey with with with their marketing.

Absolutely. Yes. I think it it does depend on the on the board itself, you know, whether they have that point person on on the board who's has a good relationship with the in house marketing team, whether they whether they have a committee, whether they have that expertise on the board, you know, or not, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It depends. And I think I think we will see more and more, but if you if we don't have marketing on the board itself, I think making sure that there's that relationship, and maybe that point person or that committee is important.

Yep. Yep.

So let's let's talk a little bit about your trusts that you that you're that you're you're on the board with. So three investment trusts, a VCT attracting tax motivated investors, a biotech specialist trust, and a global income and growth trust. Three. Three completely different companies. Three complete presumably, three completely different marketing propositions, aiming at at different types of investors.

Goodness me. How do you hold all of that in your head and simultaneously act as a non exec across all of them?

How how do you manage that role?

Yeah. So, I mean, I think you have to you sort of wear different hats when you're in the different, meetings, but I think there are learnings that are you you know, you can bring across to each one, and I think that's actually helpful, that you hear something on one board, that you can you can it could bring across to the other. Right. And so I think there are some big differences between between some of those investors and shareholders, but there are some similarities as well, which Okay. We we could talk about.

Okay. What are the specific challenges then, and and how do they overlap?

Yeah. So I think, so with VCTs, I think they are people who invest in VCTs are looking very very specifically offer for that tax relief that you get. Okay. So I think that's a a bit different.

Are they typically more of a a wealthier than your average investment trust type investor, or they're just looking for a different type of product?

What I mean, maybe.

I mean, it could be that the profile is, you know, wealthier, because, you know, they want to sort of, you know, maybe they've used other type. Yeah. Used other vehicles, and they're using the VCT as a tax relief Yeah. Vehicle as well.

So I think that's one one aspect to look at. And then if you look at the others, the iBT, which is a biotech trust, and then there's STS, which is a global income growth trust. Both of them, they're they're they're quite different, but what I found is investors are looking for some combination of growth and income. So they're looking for some capital appreciation and some income.

So even on, the biotech on IBT, though most of these companies don't, pay dividends, we've pay out of the out of cap the capital of the company, we pay a dividend.

Right.

So there's some combination of growth and income that people are looking for.

Yes.

And then another similarity, I would say, is that well, I've actually found just sort of speaking to investors at AGMs that they'll sometimes you find people who sort of investment trust specialists, and they have a whole portfolio of investment trust, and they really like the sector. That's probably a a a subsector. I think what I would say is that most investment trust and investment company and VCT investors, they do tend to skew older demographically, sort of fifty plus or even older. And the while, of course, we value all of our investors and shareholders, I think one of the challenges that the industry faces is trying to attract younger a younger demographic.

Yes. And so whether that's millennials or even Gen Zs, so for the longer term health of the industry, and so that's something I've been thinking about Right. Quite a lot as well. I think it's important to sort of have that pipeline of people coming in, as well as, you know, keeping our more mature investors happy.

Yeah. So I think that's something that you find across the across the investment trust and, like, as a company industry.

I guess that's almost like a, you know, attracting the the younger investors, fresh blood, shall we say, coming through. Yeah. Almost like the long term marketing strategy. Yeah.

The attracting the near term money right now, that's the the the short term. That's essentially the sales Yeah. Driving activity, isn't it? Just thinking a little bit about how you differentiate trusts within the marketplace.

So and part of that is is is brand and Do you? You know, when we look at other products in in in the marketplace, brands are everywhere. Within the world of investment trust, how would you build a brand identity when the proposition is either so product driven or, in in one of your cases, VCT tax driven?

Yes. And I think the it is it is you know, you have to really think carefully about how what the positioning is, what the the the end customer is. And I think it's something that I think that investment trusts are of as a whole sort of trying to sort of struggling with in some ways in terms of how that you do that really effectively.

I mean, I think that there are trusts that have done really, really well in terms of building that brand and reaching out to that, retail consumer.

We had one on the other day.

Yes. I see. I just see that. I see. I saw that saw that podcast. But I think I I heard something really interesting at the latest, AIC conference where there was, one of the presenters talked about the fact that, you know, you we need to, as an industry, as an investor trust, think of ourselves as a as a consumer brand as opposed to Yeah.

Just think of ourselves as as a as a finance company and to try and build that trust with the end retail consumer if if we're trying to get more of those. And, also, that we have to realize that we're we're competing with Netflix.

We're not necessarily competing with another investment firm. No. We're competing with Netflix for people's attention. And so it's changing that mindset, and finding fresh ways of thinking and fresh ways of doing things.

And I think that's something that, you know, everyone is trying to figure out because, traditionally, we've gone through sort of wealth manager channel, and now it's trying to figure out how do you reach that end consumer of who often great investing through platforms. We're seeing platforms growing on our share register. There's reach around reaching that end customer is very fragmented and and has lots of many things competing for for their time and attention. So I think we're all trying to figure figure out how to how how best to do that.

Yeah. That focus the mind when you think, right. My my competitor perhaps isn't x y zed Yeah. Trust in my AIC sector classification.

It's actually this behemoth Netflix, which is a I I think And that's one way.

Mean, not everyone may agree with that, but I thought that was a really interesting take on it. Yeah.

Just think about who you're you're competing with, and also thinking about being more of a a consumer brand, and thinking about where consumer brands think, which I don't think Yes.

So I think it's a different way that for the industry to think. So now everyone may not agree with that prognosis, but I think I thought it was really great way to think about it is if we're gonna be going after the retail investor.

And well, I think, again, we we did some work on the investment trust sector talking about an initiative called the missing lever.

Yes. Yes.

I went to I know you were at that presentation. But the talk in in in that event was everyone saying the retail sector is something that the the the sector needs to engage more fully because of consolidation and such forth.

So hence, all of the the focus at the moment, I think, on on the on the marketing side of things.

Just just coming back to to you and and the fact that you sit across the different trusts, you mentioned that you've gives you advantages because you can spot things that apply across both I think so.

Yeah.

Does the opposite work? Does it create blind spots?

I hope not.

I I hope that, you know, I think blind spots can often occur if you're sort of just focusing on on on on one thing and not seeing other other things. Yes. I think that, you know, being in sort of on the on the boards of different companies that are facing different challenges that some of them are similar, I think it helps me to I I would imagine to see more and to understand more about what's going on with the industry more broadly, and then be able to bring those learnings to bear.

And and presumably, that's what the other people are on the board for, to to help compensate for people everyone has bias, we all have biases that way, so it it helps, I guess, to to work with your with your with your fellow board members.

Yes.

And I think everyone sort of brings different expertise, so, you know, there'll be someone who is, you know, has an expertise in accounting, someone who has expertise maybe in different types of, you know, maybe venture capital or Yeah.

Someone who has expertise in in biotechnology or someone who's a we have one on one of our boards. Have someone who's a, you know, professor and who's a specialist in in the in the sector. So and then you can all, you know, bring that expertise to bear at the right time, and I think that's important being on a board, not feeling you have to always be the expert at any particular time. You'll there'll be times when you have the expertise needs to be kept, and then there'll be other times when someone else Yes. Comes to the fore.

So in in your in your role across these boards, and we mentioned the the the importance that is being pushed upon the the retail sector now, arguably driven by wealth manager consolidation as as well as any other pressures that seem to be on the the sector, not least.

Is yeah. How urgent do you think the shift is to to reignite the the the retail sector? And and do you think it's it's it's working?

I think it's urgent. I think it's the topic of conversation of, you know, pretty much every every investment trust board. I think it's it's quite urgent. So there's marketing.

There's also, you know, people are starting to think about the impact of of AI as well. And so if someone has marketing and AI, I think you'll be you'll be pretty pretty in demand if you have both of those skills on a board. But yeah. No.

I think I think it's pretty I think it's pretty urgent, and so I think we're all trying to find the best way the best way to to do that.

Is there any is there any resistance to to going at it for for for pelt?

Well, I mean, I think I think it's the resistance might be on what's the best methodology. So I think people still giggle a little when you investment trusts start talking about TikTok.

Right.

Yeah.

Like, oh, you know, is that is that the right medium? Is it is it the right for our investors? Is it the right, you know, given our investor base, what should we use? Should we use YouTube?

Should we use TikTok? Is this we use social media at all? Should we focusing more on on the traditional media? And and, of course, the answer is you can do all all of those things.

I thought I thought the FNC podcast you you did was quite interesting. They've they've definitely shifted and come up with a brand new way of doing things.

And and I think they're the oldest investment trust in the UK, so it shows that you can have a long legacy and a history and do things differently. So I think the resistance is I think people understand what the what the problem is, is how do you do it, and getting out of our comfort zone and wondering whether that is the right thing to do just because everyone else is doing social media. Is is that really the the right way? Maybe it's not.

And it and it it could be new for some investment trends, you want to put more of an emphasis on it than others. So I think it's just so the resistance might be on we, you know, we don't wanna just do what everyone else is doing, and we wanna make sure that we're doing the right thing for our investor base and our target investor base. Yeah. I think, you know, I think there may maybe needs to be thought on not just as we talked about, we have the current investor base.

Yes. Do we need to start thinking more about the the the future? And I think of it almost like planting a a tree. You know, you can plant a a seed now, and you're not gonna see much coming out of it initially, but, you know, in a few years' time, it it can grow into this beautiful tree that provides shelter and and fruit, and it may not provide that shelter and fruit to people that planted it.

You know, you wanna think about what's coming down the pipe in future generations. So I think there's always that balance between thinking about what is gonna pay off now and what's gonna, you know, pay off in the long term and what's gonna benefit a particular trust versus the industry overall. And, you you know, there's there's a return on investment. How do you think about that near term versus long term?

So I think the the pushback might be on, you know, what what makes sense for us today, and what's that balance between return on investment. And it's hard sometimes to judge what what you're getting from a marketing campaign.

So these are some of the, I think, the the decisions and the discussions.

That's a nice analogy though, and I I I like that, and it's I I guess the the question I had in my head then was when you were saying that story is, do boards get enough time to to think of providing for the, you know it's it's almost be like a custodian trying to get that word here.

Custodian of the trust and Yeah. Protecting it for the future generations that are coming through. And I think that's lovely. I haven't actually heard boards talk in that respect because my my assumption, perhaps wrongly, and I hope it is wrongly, is that the pressure is on them to turn fix things, especially when activists are on the share register. It's like, we gotta react now. And hearing that you talk about having a long term view, I think, is perhaps something that I don't hear enough of within within this community.

Well, I think there has to be the balance. If there's an activist at the door, you have to react to that. You have to think about what's happening in the with the near term performance, getting the interim report out and the annual report out and figure out you know, looking at what's what's happening what what's what the managers are doing and and the performance and with the mark current marketing. But I think a lot of boards do have sort of strategy days Yeah.

Which are meant to just be able to take a step back and think about, you know, the longer term Yeah.

The health of there might be a particular topic. It could be marketing, or it could be investing, or it could be AI, or it could be there could be some theme. So that gives us an opportunity to really step back and think about the the the longer term, you know, the sort of three, five, and and maybe beyond Yes. Outlook for for the company.

So I think that's really important. Yeah. Because you do have to do the day to day. You do have to get the the the, you know, the Of course.

Step out that that that you're required to and do the the the have the proper governance and but that gives sports a space. I guess the question is you might say, know, should should it just be once a year? But I think, obviously, when you you have that, let's say, once a year strategy day, then you're trying to make sure you implement it. So you have action points and action steps that are agreed with the board and the manager for the for the for the whole year, and then you check-in on those.

So you don't want it just to a one year thing, and then everyone just walks away. So that's the the the challenge, baby, but I think, you know, a good chair in the board will make sure those are being implemented.

Yeah. I think there's a there's a there's a quote where I'm I'm I'm I can't remember the actual wording of the quote, but it's along the lines of if the strategy is good, there's no reason to change it. It's just You know, it's it's when things aren't working, process of strategy needs to change. So if you set the strategy in place, and then you're that on an annual basis and tweaking it as you go, then Yeah. Things should be working. Going back to your lovely analogy of of of of planting for future generations, you've you've thought about this a lot and that you've thought starting to form ideas for an initiative to make investment trusts more on the radar of of gen gen zed. Where did that thinking come from originally?

Yeah. I think it came from two places. So, the company I ran, Danielleson, it did investment research, but it also did training. And it trained young people on how to get, how to interview well for positions in investment research and finance, and then went in and trained, junior analysts on how to do well in their careers.

And so, I sort of realized that young people, they really like like training. They'll they like, sort of one on one coaching, and, they you know, they're quite interested in in in that area, that in that, service. And then also, the CFA UK, the well, I mentioned I was on the board of that, and I did a lot of work with special interest groups. And, so what you find is you'll you'll find a group of people, mostly young, some some some I'm sure, but a group of people who get really excited about, a topic.

It could be value investing, or it could be energy finance, or sometimes, you know, quite niche topics. And they'll be really passionate about them, and they'll they'll meet, and they'll have speakers and dinners and and all of that. And so I thought that why not investment trust? We didn't have have one of the there at the time, and there isn't one.

But I thought investment trust could be an area that, you know, I think they're a great vehicle. It's not just selfishly think about the industry. Think they could be a great vehicle for young people to get involved in and to build and to invest, and there are so many different sectors that they can they can invest in or that anyone can invest in. So I thought having a sort of special interest group combined with training and then having sort of events where people could come and and network.

They could be online. It could be in person. It could there could be fireside chats. Young people love to have more senior people come and talk about their industries.

They're always interested in their careers. And so have it all centered around investor trusts, have some training, have some, events, and have a lot of have it very social media friendly, maybe some influencers, and build some excitement there. And, again, it's sort of planting that that that seed, but if you can get some people who are really interested this could be global, you know, you know, it could be not just people in the UK, you can be people all around the world coming online and and and talking about investment trusts and sharing their ideas, and then eventually I mean, they might not have a lot of money initially, but they get excited, they get involved.

It grows.

It grows, and then Your knowledge Yeah.

Yes.

And, and then it eventually will come through. Now it's it's quite a long term payoff potentially. Yes. But I think I've seen young people can get excited about it.

They like training. They like people to invest in them. They like to hear about careers. They like to have events and socializing, of course.

And so I just think that could be something that the industry could do Yeah. Maybe with the help of AIC as well. Yeah. And that could be something exciting, a sort of, you know, industry wide campaign initiative as opposed to each trust doing doing their own thing.

Well, I think it's a great idea. Well, I've I've been I've been banging the drum for the industry with with the missing lever.

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.

Do a national campaign.

National campaign.

That would be a a fabulous extension of that as well.

We could we should talk more about that.

That's it. That's it. We should.

We've we've talked a lot about investment trusts and and your role as board, but there's I I did say at the beginning, you you pack a lot into your We really need There's a whole another part of your of your life that we haven't talked about.

Your company, Board Interview Success Yes. That you've that you've built from scratch. Now as I understand, this is this is for for you to help individuals who are thinking about taking on or trying to get their first board role.

How do you go about that as a as a business owner, marketing your own business?

Yes. And so so it is about helping people who try try to get that sort of first paid board role, which is the key to unlocking many others. I'm using various channels and and and trying to see which ones, you know, work work the best. But I think one is using net net networks. So there are networks out there which, you know, you they have people who are part of the target audience, and if you can get in in front of those, networks and present, maybe just a free webinar or, you know, make presentations. That that I think that's quite a good way, finding people who are already, interested in that topic and getting in front of them. I think social media is another way, particularly LinkedIn and YouTube.

And then, word-of-mouth, is I think will play play a a really important role as well. And then there's through organizations. I mean, I think one thing I'll I'll do is go into an organization and present to their employees because they may have decided as part of a leadership development or retention program, they know there's some of their senior employees who want to get Ned roles, and so they'll you know, they could bring me in to present to them or provide webinars or coaching or training to help them to get on their board. So I think it's a multifaceted way of doing things. And one thing I would say is that when it's starting a business today, AI makes makes it quite it's, like, very helpful in terms of efficiency, and Yes. So I think that's something that's that we all have to, you know, actually learn how to use more.

And and what's there's the number of different tactics there. What's what's working on the marketing side for you the most? Is there one tactic at the moment is starting to move ahead of the others, do you think?

Interesting. I've I've found the the Ned networks, you know, have have worked quite well, because there's a group of people who are already interested, in gaining roles, and so sort of, getting in front of them.

So I'm working on just a few more channels of people who are Right.

Already part of a a a pool of of interest people interested in nonexecutive director roles, or who are doing some sort of training program and linking linking up with them. I think that that's a really good way. And I think I did that more quickly this time than I did.

Well, I think running a business before helped me to think about, okay, go straight and sort of, you know, if you're a newer business, you wanna link up with a a bigger brand or link up with someone who already has your target, and so I think that can work quite well.

Yes. Yeah. Almost using that as well, in a in a way, it's a bit like branded content, you're you're tapping into that brand that has the bigger audience, and you're coming and going, right, there's similarities here, Venn diagram, where's the crossover?

Exactly. Yeah. And if you, you know, wanna provide value to the people in that network, and then and then present, okay, well, this is, you know, if you've liked what I've done here, I can provide more, but you have to I think always be willing to to give value first in today's economy, whether it's free advice on on YouTube or Yeah.

Downloads that people can have, people expect to be able to read and see what you've done and get familiar with you, and then decide, okay, actually, I like what this person is saying, I wanna work with her Yes.

One on one. Yeah. Absolutely. So for for people that are perhaps listening on the on the podcast, we have a we have an audience of senior marketers listening to the growth engine.

I suspect many of them could be thinking about their next chapter and like the idea of Becoming a board member. Yes. It's not a as I understand, it's not a decision that can be taken lightly. It it there's a lot of work for you to to to prep up to that. How should they go about doing that, and how can they make best use of perhaps the marketing experience that they that they do have and understand how that could translate into a into a boardroom context? And what other skills are they gonna need to add to it to become a valued board member?

Yes. I think there so I think as we've discussed, know, my view at least is that marketing expertise will become more and more valued on boards. So I think if you're someone in marketing and you want to get on the board eventually, think there are few ways to to think about it. So you do wanna think about what you can bring and what your particular positioning is.

You know, one thing I would try to get exposure to to boards where you are currently within the SEO your current organization if you can. If you can get to the point where you're presenting to the board, that would be great. But even if you if you can't present, you can maybe ask one of your superiors and say, you know, I'd like to sit in on a board meeting, and and then you can get to see the types of questions that are being asked, and then you can think about, you know, if you am I if I was in an interview, how would I respond if someone asked me that sort of question? You can see what's being discussed, and, you know, and board's very happy for someone to just come along and sit and not say anything.

You know, I think they they won't even say this is not it's not a problem. So I think I would I would try and get exposure to to a board. That's one thing.

Is there a there's a board etiquette almost is that you need to kind of understand and learn about.

Is it Yes. Is that am I I feel that, but I don't wanna put words in your fats.

So Yeah.

I think there is. I think there is.

There's sort of, as I mentioned, sort of knowing when to speak and not to speak, and, you know, there'll often lots of people in the boardroom, and you have to sort of judge, and they have to be able to read the room sometimes and Yes.

And understand the role of the chair and the role of the different committee and some of the procedural stuff. So I think just getting exposure and just figuring out, is this something I'd like to do? You know, somebody Yeah. Think they wanna be on a board, but they, you know, they're like, oh, you know, they may not actually enjoy it, or they might really really enjoy it. So I think that's one way, getting exposure, and I think that my number one as a, piece of advice would be to get on a board yourself.

Right.

And your first board will often be an unpaid role like mine was, or a not very well paid role, and so try to to volunteer on a board, get in a nonprofit, you know, it can be a governor at a at a school or university. There are actually some, government linked roles that, you can sometimes look at if your your expertise might be valued. And there are lot of resources out there where you can find different roles. So would say get on a board because it just gives you that sort of leg up, and it gives you that exposure, it gives you that sort of etiquette, and it gives you that, understanding of whether you like it.

And then when you decide to go for, let's say, a paid board role, you have something to talk about, you have experience, and you've shown people that this is something you're actually interested in because you put in the time and you volunteered, and Yeah.

And I think it just helps.

And would a cup again, a couple of questions that jump up from that.

How how hard is that to get a voluntary role on on on a boy? I mean, it sounds it sounds very rewarding thing to do, but I suspect that it's not the easiest thing to do either.

Even getting a volunteer role can be can be tough.

I was turned down twice before I got Yeah.

My first that volunteer role.

And that that's gotta hurt a bit. You you gotta take some knots.

Yeah. But you you learn, and you learn from it. So you Yeah. You get turned down, or you figure out, oh, what did what did I not do well?

Actually, the first time I interviewed, I was terrible. I mean Right. So it's fair. Yeah.

It's quite fair. And then you say, oh, okay.

And then you go and you actually do some research, and you figure out what what what are the questions that are gonna be asked, and Okay.

And then you come back. And so And especially if it's, like, a really large charity like the NSPCC or something, I mean, it's it's very hard to get on a board like that. Yes. But then the the local smaller charities that maybe you have a real I would say find something you're really interested and really passionate about, so it might be your kid's school board, or the university you went to, or something in music, or whatever you're passionate about Yeah.

Try and get on the board. It could take a few tries, but make it something that you really decide you wanna do and and focus on it. Yes. And then do that for a while, and then eventually And it it doesn't always have to be there.

You can get on a board without having volunteered, but I just think it's it's quite a good quite a good Good way.

Yeah.

Yeah. A good way in and just to help you to figure out whether you actually like being on boards.

Yeah. Thank you. That's that's brings us to the end of the the main part, but I do have one more question.

Okay.

And and that's largely because of the the environment we're in. What we always say to to all of our guests that come on is we have this sort of souvenir bookcase.

Yes.

I don't know if you would like to contribute to the the to the bookcase, so we have a a lasting memory of our of our discussion today.

Yes. I have thought about it, and I have a book for you.

Oh, fantastic.

Now I did hesitate about this particular book because, in terms of relevance, because it doesn't have anything to do with, boards or investment trusts. Correct. Okay. However, then I realized, actually, it does it does have some relevance.

So it's a book I wrote Fantastic.

And I wrote it in twenty ten, so quite a long time ago. And the link is so I wrote the book, it's called how to get an equity research analyst job, and I wrote a book for people who were looking to get jobs in investment research and and equity research, which is what what I had done, and I you know, no one asked me to write the book, I just said I wanted to help people who had done what I had done. And so the link is that now I'm through board interview success, I'm trying to help people to get roles and to do what I did in terms of, you know, making that leap to getting that first paid board role. Brilliant. So it's not exactly, you know, relevant for the target market, but I thought it made sense, and it's a book for a bookcase.

That's fantastic. Well, I'm excited.

Do you have a copy if I do.

I have a copy of the book. Let me get it for you.

Grant. Look at that. Here it is. Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Julian, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you for inviting me. Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening today to The Growth Engine. If you enjoyed this episode and like to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcast from, and follow us on LinkedIn for regular updates or on hub agency dot co dot u k. Thank you, and see you next time.