Her expertise spans digital strategy, event marketing, and customer relationship management, driving innovation and strategic growth in highly competitive markets.

Beyond her corporate achievements, Arlette founded a sustainable fashion brand, showcasing her commitment to ethical business practices and creative entrepreneurship. Arlette, thank you for joining us today and coming down to see us. To get us going, can you give us a bit of background on your career to date and ultimately what led you to your role at Aravis Capital?

Yeah, sure. Thanks for the invitation to be here today, David.

Pleasure.

So I began my career at Lazard Asset Management in the hedge fund team, and I was there for two years before I was invited to join a global investment management firm in Mayfair. So I took up this opportunity because it was to work with some star hedge fund managers there, and I worked there for seven years navigating the space. We looked after launching seven hedge funds and then we moved from the hedge fund space into the long-only space.

After being there for seven years, I decided I wanted to have a mini career break. So I went off travelling and it was there on my travels that I came up with an idea to set up a sustainable fashion brand.

Right. Nice.

And I went about setting that up in Peru. And for me, that was a pivotal moment in my career because it shaped where I am and what I'm doing now at Aravis.

Right, right. Fabulous. There's so many intriguing stories in there. Firstly, where did you go travelling?

So I went all through Asia, New Zealand, Australia, and then finally my destination was South America — Machu Picchu.

Right. Beautiful. And what was the moment that you decided to set up a sustainable clothing line?

Well, it was actually in New Zealand, walking along Golden Bay, I think, or somewhere around there. I simply said I had always wanted to be a buyer, a fashion buyer. And I didn't do that when I left university. So no one would give me a job as a fashion buyer after I'd been working ten years in finance. So I thought, okay, let's try doing it myself. And that's what I did.

So not only did I design a fashion range, I put it out there to the market. And to bring it all back on the marketing side, I learnt the three-sixty marketing scope of what is needed to build a brand from scratch.

From the brand identity all the way through to video and what we're doing right now, David.

Brilliant. So you enjoyed doing that presumably?

I did. But as a one-man band, I realised that I didn't have all the skills to do everything and I didn't have the budget. If we all had a Beckham budget, that would be brilliant.

Yet it taught me to be resourceful, just like in finance or any industry.

It's all about networks and your relationships.

What happened between the brand and arriving in the current role? How did you get into Aravis?

Actually, David, I simply decided I wanted to have a holiday and it would be nice to be employed again. There are advantages to being an employee versus self-employed.

Of course.

Yeah. So the opportunity arose to work for Aravis Capital and I thought it would be slightly different because they're a third-party marketing business.

So as an agency, we're matching up investors with investment opportunities.

And they said to me, you could bring in your own flair and make the role your own. I would be their first dedicated marketer. So essentially going into a relatively new business — while they were five years old — I could have a blank canvas and go in and build the marketing function up. And that has proved to work well. I'm here nine years later.

Well, congratulations. What a story. That's fabulous. Tell us a little bit more about Aravis. What is it — when you came in it was five years old, so it's now…

Twelve years. Yeah, fourteen years. And we're eleven employees.

We're in an open-plan office in a fantastic location — Palma — which is brilliant because that's where most of our investors are. So regularly we have the fund managers over. We represent a number of select investment managers and our goal is to match them up with investors who want to invest in their funds.

So our sales team are actively all the time on the road or having meetings with their prospects before the fund managers from the US or China come into town, and then they have their follow-up meetings, etc.

And this is purely in the institutional space?

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, that's a very interesting space and it's one I don't know a huge amount about. So I'm really keen to learn more and I'm definitely keen to start diving into the marketing tactics that you found effective in your time. But more of that later.

We'll come on to that.

I guess the top-line question really around all of this is how marketing has been changing in financial services, within asset management. How have you adapted the strategy from when you started off to where you are now to make sure that you're maintaining engagement, supporting the sales team and ultimately driving effectiveness?

Great question. So since when I joined, marketing was predominantly email campaign management and one-to-one meetings. And then with the pandemic, we saw that there was a shift to webinars. Everyone had to do them and there was no way out. We all had to adapt.

So with that, we jumped on the bandwagon and saw great success with the webinars we produced because they were very high quality against what our peers were putting out there. It was working really well, David, for us for the two years up until twenty twenty-three. And we saw from our metrics that we were achieving a 67% conversion rate against a benchmark of 45%.

So when I'm looking at the conversion, I'm talking about people registering and then signing up to the webinar and audience engagement, etc.

But the change was in 2023. I think everyone noticed there was a sense of webinar fatigue and then people were excited to be back on the road and travelling.

With the increase in opportunities for human interaction, there was a decline in people tuning into these webinars.

So I think part of the question was about the analytics and how we measured what was effective?

Yeah. What was your thinking around that?

We use the platform BigMarker and their 2022 report analysed one point six million webinars.

Okay.

And the findings were that if you push the webinar out or have it live on a Wednesday between eleven and one pm, and everything is with subtitles, you'll keep your audience. And that will be enough, as well as forty-five minutes being the optimum length.

Okay.

So we made those adjustments from sixty to forty-five minutes. And that, David, was a challenge because the portfolio managers are used to having a structure of that length of time. They liked having the audience engagement of the Q&A.

But if we're not having the audience dial in, or they're saying we don't really need these webinars because we're meeting them face-to-face, we need to do something in order to keep everyone happy.

So you essentially cut a quarter of the time. And what was the result from that?

We didn't notice any improvement in engagement and just felt, okay, let's stay ahead of the game here.

Webinars, I think, are dry. It's just a PowerPoint presentation — quite static.

And in marketing, we all need to be invigorated and have something fresh, new, uplifting.

So with that in mind, in twenty-two we decided to try a bit more of our marketing strategy using video.

Okay.

So with that in mind, we started doing these ten-minute videos when our managers were coming to town, or virtually. And it would be a bit more spontaneous. It wouldn't be as planned and structured as the quarterly webinars.

Did you cancel the webinars completely?

No, we didn't.

We didn't scrap them — this was almost like a test pilot. See where this would go. Does it actually work?

And video wasn't central to our strategy other than these webinars.

The effectiveness of these ten-minute videos — because like what Hub do, we put them on LinkedIn and you can upload the full ten-minute video onto LinkedIn and people would watch it. So we've had brilliant engagement. The viewership has gone through the roof.

Fantastic.

And it's building our profile — all the intangible effects. We're involving our sales team. So they're acting as anchors, being the host with the portfolio manager who's in town.

So it's raising their profile within the industry as well.

And are you asking the sales team to also be sharing it across their social profiles, or is it only going through the main company profile?

Absolutely. I am always going on about please share, like, repost.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because we have found that — well it's a LinkedIn stat actually — that thirty percent of a company's LinkedIn engagement will come from your employees.

So create a LinkedIn advocacy programme. I know UBS have a rock star programme for their LinkedIn ambassadors.

Oh interesting.

I heard Cisco are training up all their staff to be LinkedIn gurus. And internally at Aravis the sales team are all on board.

They are now reposting and sharing.

Relinktining.

Yeah, exactly.

So without doubt it's key to any business, I think. But then you do have to look at the compliance regulations around that and ensure that everyone is on board, has the right disclaimers if they're putting it on, and adheres to any of your company brand guidelines, etc.

How do you manage that?

Is it — do you have internal compliance? Do you speak to them, get them on board, say look this is what we're trying to do, we want to be working with you, not against you?

It's often the way with compliance sometimes.

What's your approach to tackling that?

So essentially I work with our CEO and he also looks after compliance and works with an outsourced compliance officer.

And they're always keeping us up to date with all the regulations in the landscape.

So for example, last year we needed to make everything ESMA-FCA compliant. On all communications that would go out, you need to display “marketing communication” on the top right corner or throughout the communication.

So we'll implement all the work alongside the regulatory requirements and ensure that all of the communications we upload or share on any of our social media channels comply with the financial promotions rules.

Have you noted? Because I get the sense that you're measuring the effectiveness of all of the output. And from the time that you had previously, prior to putting all of the compliance statements of “marketing communication” on the output, and then subsequently doing it, have you noticed any drop-off by doing that or any noticeable difference?

No, none whatsoever, really, because it's quite nice. The audience — it's not impacting the audience anyway. It's simply a visual.

And then having the right copy disclaimer beneath the video, etc.

Yes.

And then we encourage our managers or affiliates to cross-promote. So if we're posting something, they can repost it on their LinkedIn feed. But it's not always possible because of their compliance.

Sure.

So we're very much focused on using our own channel and encouraging our team, the eleven of us, to repost. And that is always boosting the Aravis profile as well as building all Aravis team members’ profiles.

Beyond the LinkedIn pieces, is there any other marketing campaign or experiments that you've done that you're particularly proud of that you can share?

Yes. So after we developed the ten-minute manager videos, we needed to continue pushing out quarterly fund manager updates. And given that the forty-five-minute webinars were not working, and looking at the industry benchmarks which showed to me that the average video length was fifteen minutes—

Right. Right.

—I worked with that stat and said, okay, we need to build a fifteen-minute, maybe a newsreel format.

So to make it engaging for our investors, the content would be punchy. It would be the fund manager providing us with an update on the top contributors, detractors, the performance, the market outlook — right? But in terms of time, this was a challenge because they were used to having forty-five minutes.

They must have loved you. You've gone from saying you've got sixty minutes, forty-five, and now you've gone in and said, can we do this in fifteen? How did that go?

But I made it happen, David.

Oh, that's amazing.

Amazing.

So after doing a competitor analysis, I thought that was key to see — is there anyone else doing this out there?

And I found none of our competitors were doing it. Then I looked at peer groups and I found one manager was doing some kind of video campaign management. So I thought, as my boss would always say, let's give it a go, try and change something, try something new. So we pitched it to the fund managers and it actually did go down well after I could answer all their questions — namely, but what about the Q&A?

Yeah.

Because to them they were used to that interaction with the investors and prospects dialling in. So if you're eliminating that fifteen minutes—

So we sold it that basically, okay, it's going to be short and punchy and animated.

Okay.

And with the newsreel format we're animating the presentation slides throughout. There's ticker tape. It's all a lot more compelling and visual.

And with that in mind, it all works out well. Everyone's been happy. There's been very positive feedback.

We did have some challenges initially, because we wanted to measure who was watching the video. And we put it on our website as gated content, yet realised if you have any barriers to entry people now don't want to even give you your email address. So we removed that and quickly saw an uptick of forty percent.

Right, right. Just from removing the gate.

Exactly.

Yeah. Let's go back to the beginning of this.

It seems really interesting what you've done. Firstly, again, your levels of persuasion must be extraordinary to get fund managers to stop doing their sixty-minute presentation and condense that into fifteen.

I'm interested in the fifteen-minute length as well. Now, you mentioned that you looked at an industry benchmark. Where was that that you got that from?

So that was Vidyard.

Vidyard. The consultancy. Yeah. And they've got a player, haven't they? A video player.

It's an interesting number because I remember reading a few years ago now when TED Talks were everywhere that they had conducted lots of research. And I think they came to the ideal length of a video — quite an informative video like TED Talks are — and I think they came up with a number of either fourteen, fifteen or sixteen minutes. So very, very similar to Vidyard’s figure.

So that length of time, I guess, is long enough to give quite a detailed level of information but short enough to keep people captivated and not lose their attention. It's an interesting number, isn't it?

Yes. But I've also noticed that you're not necessarily going to have your audience watch that for fifteen minutes. So it's critical to make the first, I think they say, nine seconds.

Right.

We have such a short attention span now, so we have to create a hook and be concise in our introduction, etc.

So for us, we're saying we're delivering you a fifteen-minute digestible interactive insight, all in under fifteen minutes flat.

Right. Right. So that's always upfront to let them know what's going on.

And then I think as we're building momentum — we're only three quarters in — so we've produced three so far. It's gaining traction. Yet to pique people's curiosity, we are having to break that fifteen minutes down into a two-minute clip, or the better optimum is a sixty-second clip.

So I remember a story about TV formats and it always sticks in my mind. I think it's really useful. It's something that TV shows use all the time, and I don't think we use it enough in business content. And that's the purpose of a format — that you can come into it at any point through the show.

And if it's a good format you'll roughly know, right, I'm near the beginning, I'm near the middle, or I'm near the end.

And I'm already showing my age, but the one I always use as an example is if you come into the middle of a show like X Factor you'll know if it's near the end of X Factor or near the beginning of X Factor. And that's because it's got such a tight format.

And I think where you're going is that formats are really useful if you're trying to build audience and audience growth because they become used to the format.

But you've got to tweak that format to get it right. So you're three episodes in. How are the numbers looking?

They're improving. And I think it's all about touching on what you've just said — building consistency.

So essentially it's a new product and people are building familiarity with it. They're slowly starting to catch on to the new brand name, which is Aravis Inside Track.

Delving deep into the fund updates.

So we're really seeing how this product is going to evolve. I think it's going to take a full year — so four episodes at least — to see how that traction goes.

But the feedback from investors is that they like it. It's punchy. And that we're not only offering video updates — we have long, lengthy updates.

So we're trying to cover all aspects really to keep everyone happy with whatever their needs are.

You mean you have the short fifteen-minute version, but you have a longer one as well, do you?

We have long-form content — so a quarterly update letter.

I see. I see. Yeah.

In the content production we'll reference that if you want to find out more you can read the quarterly update.

Got it.

Instead of it all being covered in the old format — sixty minutes.

Yeah. And how have the portfolio managers taken it? Have they embraced the shorter format now?

They have, because we are saving them time.

Yeah, of course.

And also because it's on demand and it's not live, that reduces the stress level. You don't have to worry about the technology all going wrong or audience engagement or anything that may come up, which we've all experienced.

So I think now we literally have a format where we have a prep call for thirty minutes a couple of days before, and then on the day it takes up thirty minutes of their time maximum.

Yeah, yeah.

So the process of compliance approval — we have to make sure that's all streamlined and hope to push that content out within seven days.

How are you managing that? That is — there's a lot to get done, isn't there, from when you've finished shooting to turn that round within seven days? That's impressive.

Yes, it's a challenge again.

So I think initially it's having a conversation with the fund managers and their compliance and streamlining that process.

Now we've got a production process in place and they know what they can or cannot say. And we have all the right disclaimers on the video content.

It makes the whole post-production process a lot smoother.

Yet the element which is taking time is we're adding subtitles. We're having to check all the subtitles.

AI is fantastic, but it's not good enough.

It's not there. It's saying astrology instead of strategy.

Right. Yeah.

So we have to go through with a fine-tooth comb and make sure everything is one hundred percent accurate.

Yeah. I mean it's funny, isn't it? You read the software and it's saying it's ninety percent accurate. You think, oh that sounds pretty good. And you realise that actually that means one word in ten is probably wrong.

Exactly.

There is a way to go.

I'm keen to dive into a broader area again within marketing.

Data is something that all marketers are working with, and it seems there's increasing technology and more and more data available to us.

I'm interested in how you use data analytics specifically within your marketing strategy to help you with decisions that you want to make within your campaigns, but also to start measuring their impact and the effectiveness that they're having on the overarching strategy.

Well I totally agree. Data is critical to everything that we're doing and we're constantly monitoring our campaign effectiveness by using our campaign management system and the analytics.

At Aravis we're using Mailchimp.

So monthly, any of the material we're disseminating, we're looking back at how that's performed. We go to the analytics page and look at the click map and can see where we have a high click-through rate or where we thought there would have been engagement — for example clicking on the videos.

If that has reduced slightly, why is that?

Is that because the video was at the top of the page or the bottom of the page?

And where are people opening these emails — on their desktop or mobile?

Because that's all going to impact the open and conversion rates.

Sure.

So we have to be monitoring that regularly because everything is visual.

Does that then impact on the content for the subsequent ones that you're doing?

If you're finding insights based on that analysis of the data, are you adapting that going forward?

Yes, all the time.

For example, around six months ago we noticed that if we were just showing some attachments as three links — three lines — instead of images, that was working better for a period because it was reducing the space on the email.

Right. Interesting.

See, that would sound counterproductive, wouldn't it?

You wouldn't have assumed that.

It was a funny one because I would always think visual — we're visual people.

But the visuals are taking up space when you're scrolling through your newsfeed.

So if you're just putting the crucial information at the top and making sure the introduction is “Dear [Name]”, which also I think is very important for firms to do.

Since I joined Aravis I made sure in all communications that went out we addressed the investor by their first name.

And I've noticed we still receive inbound emails where there's no acknowledgement of our names.

And it would seem very basic to us that personalisation is key in order to capture that attention.

That piece of using analytics to find out that the links on their own have performed better — did that remain constant or did that vary?

No. So we change it up again. Yeah, yeah. Because I think simply changing the visual display of your communications all the time helps. And it might be too text-heavy or too visual-heavy.

Sure.

And we definitely find that shortening any emails has more of an impact on our readership.

That's how you use data. Yeah. I think we can sometimes get obsessed with data as well. And you mentioned simple things about addressing people by their first names. Is there anything else that you can tell us about a more, what I'd call, human-centric approach to marketing that you've learned or put into place?

Yes. So with our sales team, one example is that we encourage them to take photos whilst they're on their roadshow trips with the managers in Geneva, Switzerland — a simple photo of them in front of the lake, etc., right? And then they will send it to us, we'll post it on LinkedIn, and it makes them relatable to their audience. It shows they're active, they're out there.

It creates a bit of camaraderie in the office because they're all saying, oh, whose post had the most likes, impressions, etc.

Right, right.

So that's more on the internal side. And then we decided to launch another video series, which is the Meet the Fund Manager series. So this series, David, is basically an introduction video to the philosophy, process and strategy of the fund.

So a new prospect can view it and see, is this really of interest, and pre-qualify themselves really before having a one-to-one meeting and gauge whether this is really of interest.

This, we hope, is saving our fund managers time and we've wanted to do it for years. We finally got around to doing it this year. So they're all on our website. We're proud of it. And the fund managers were all on board with that because they can repurpose that content now on their own websites as well.

How long are those pieces?

Ten minutes.

Right. And the engagement levels have been good on those?

Very good. And they're all hosted on our website. So that's a main platform where people will see them, and on our partners', the fund managers', platforms.

Is there a format to those?

Yes, there is. So it's an introduction again — an introduction of who they are. Everything, again, is all animated.

We sat down with the sales team beforehand and looked at their pitch deck and broke the pitch deck down into the core sections, and then created this video series around that. So for the select funds we represent, we have the same structure for each video.

Great, great.

And they're all around ten to twelve minutes.

And are the sales team using those videos to send to prospects, and how are they being incorporated into the, I guess, business as usual for Aravis?

So they are sending them out. They're linking them in their emails. They're sending them out to their prospects. They're essentially putting a visual and a link which goes to our website. And that's a great tool for everyone.

Have you seen good engagement from — or have you had any feedback from —

It's quite early days yet because we only signed off on them, I think, two months ago.

Right. So fairly still hot off the press.

Exactly. But the fund managers love doing them because essentially when we filmed them in their offices — and one manager in San Francisco — it really provided an insight into their environment. And you could see behind the scenes what's happening.

Right, right.

It builds familiarity, makes the fund manager relatable — again, going back to human-centric.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moving on to content consumption.

Thinking about broader marketing messages, how do you make sure that from a marketing positioning strategy your messages are actually cutting through to your target audience?

It's a really good question, David, because I think we're all being overwhelmed with content these days. And I read that in the seventies a human was seeing between five hundred to fifteen hundred ad messages a day. And now, as humans, we're seeing between six to ten thousand marketing messages a day.

Oh my goodness.

So how, as a firm, are we going to cut through that noise? So we go back and look at our audience and we're basically providing them with all the material possible, whether it's long-form content or short-form content.

Okay.

And we find that everyone has a different aptitude. The allocators — they like the videos, but they also want the more detailed reports. The quarterly update reports, the quarterly letters which the managers write are very important to them. Some of the managers we work with provide us with a monthly letter, which again is very long, detailed and comprehensive, and the investors love that. So I think it is about providing the full spectrum of resources.

There's different communications for different roles there. So marketing could be, whether it's top-of-funnel awareness generation — probably the more short-form content. But when you're into that “am I going to make a purchase decision? Am I going to invest in this fund?” you probably want a bit more detail, a bit more meat on the bones, which is perhaps where that longer-form material comes into play.

And that's why I think everyone is beginning to adapt to using video because they're realising the explainer introductory videos are key to bring someone in at the top level, and then further down the funnel you're going to need to provide the more comprehensive material. And then at the next stage they're going to say, okay, we'd like to have a meeting with a manager, and on goes the process.

Yeah, yeah. And I think you mentioned this before about being respectful of managers' — portfolio managers' — time.

Having this kind of top-of-funnel content helps them to cover more ground, really, doesn't it? And focus their time on the actual conversions that are nearer to that purchase decision. So presumably that's helping achieve more, again, with both limited resources from a budget point of view and also from a human point of view.

Exactly. Well, we hope so. And also we have to bear in mind that we have them on the road doing numerous meetings throughout Europe. So when they come to London they're travelling through Switzerland, Madrid, Italy, France. So that takes up maybe a week of their time.

Of course.

So we're always aware of the time element and that they really want to be at their desk managing the portfolio.

Of course. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what — you know, we work with a lot of clients and portfolio managers and it's always the common thing: I understand marketing, but if I'm doing this then I'm not doing my day job.

So it's —

Exactly.

Yeah. It's that constant battle. Again, maybe jumping out a little bit — big picture.

Marketing is a fast-moving space, digital marketing. You know, there's always different trends that are cropping up. What are you focused on at the moment that's having the most significant impact on the way that you work at Aravis?

I believe AI is revolutionising everything in marketing, and we are looking at it as a complementary tool. It's not a replacement.

It's basically a tool we can leverage to free up marketers' time so we can focus on other strategic and creative endeavours. By using the right AI tools it can help us with translations, copy, data analysis.

And it really is about refining what platforms you're using and how it works within your business. And for us, we're at a very early stage. We're only really working with one platform, which is Firefly, with our videos and we find that is working well. It helps with transcripts, copy for LinkedIn posts, etc. Yet again, it's more of a test phase, I think.

I see. I see. But you are finding it a reliable tool — one that the team have embraced and enabling you to achieve more with, again, the human resources at your fingertips?

Absolutely. But I think we have to keep our own curiosity and not be too reliant, because if people are all using chatbots and saying “write an email”, it's going to become generic and we need to personalise everything.

Yeah. And then your point earlier about the volume of marketing messages that we're exposed to — it's got the potential to increase beyond that. But if they're more being written out by the same AI tools, it's going to make it quite a dull place.

Diving down into your specific sector — institutional marketing within asset management — what changes do you anticipate happening within that specific sector?

We're anticipating increased regulation, and we're already seeing that as the landscape is ever evolving. So any new regulations we're needing to implement, and that in turn means we're going to have to streamline our processes of production. It may delay things. So we need to essentially be adaptable and build that into our content marketing strategy — how it's all going to plan out.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you see AI helping support in that?

I wouldn't say no, because I think there is room for AI to help.

Yet I think compliance has a key role and there are different compliance requirements in institutions. And I think it's going to be hard for AI to replace that role, so to speak.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting that law firms are increasingly using AI now to start to put elements into their workflow. And I've always thought, well, if legal firms are managing to do that, surely there must be a way for compliance teams to start bringing that in. But I agree — it seems a little way off that firms seem less willing to embrace that part within compliance, presumably because the fines would be so great if you fall foul of that.

It's true. And I think you always need a human to touch the work and go through it.

Yeah. And certainly to sign off.

People entering into the industry — what's your view of marketing with the future that we're talking about and the things that we can see in the near term? What advice would you give to aspiring marketers who are wanting to enter financial services marketing?

I think they need to be agile because it's a fast-paced, dynamic environment. So I would recommend that they invest in their learning. There are great resources out there — LinkedIn Learning. I do lots of courses on there myself. Google. Keep on top of the regulatory requirements and network. I think that is crucial in any industry actually because that's how we build relationships, we foster trust and credibility. And in turn that is building your personal brand profile, and the company you go to work for will build their profile.

Are you a member of the FS Forum?

Yes, I have an interview with them tomorrow.

Oh, do you? Interesting. That's a great networking opportunity. So yeah, I think that's a good place to be. LinkedIn Learning — what courses have you done there?

So I did the generative AI course earlier this year in February. And I thought it was quite good because it takes you through the processes, language models, how important your prompts are. And then at the end you get a certificate.

Yeah. Brilliant.

Brilliant. And it's free. So what better way? And I think as a new marketeer that's a great way to learn.

Of course. Well, and for seasoned marketers as well, I think.

Well, absolutely.

Yeah. I've started to see more and more recently on people's LinkedIn profiles saying, “I've just completed this LinkedIn Learning course.” A few years ago you didn't see those updates on there. But I'm starting to see now much more senior people across a range of sectors starting to do much more LinkedIn Learning. So I'm not sure if everyone's attitude to learning has changed or whether the quality of the LinkedIn Learning has improved. I'm not sure. But I must get myself on there.

And I think we all like that stamp on our LinkedIn personal profile.

Well, it's good, isn't it?

It shows that you're keeping active and keeping up to date with — again — marketing's fast-moving space. So it's absolutely vital to do that.

All right. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks.

Thanks for giving us your wisdom, sharing all of the activity that you've been up to at Aravis. I wish you all the success in the future.

And I'm intrigued to, once the camera stops rolling, quiz you a little bit more on all these countries that you've visited, including Peru. So thank you very much.

Thanks, David. It's very kind, and it's been an honour to be on the Growth Engine podcast.

Thank you for listening today to the Growth Engine. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from, and follow us on LinkedIn for regular updates, or on hubagency.co.uk.

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